How many skills is too many?

[Daniolaut]

I hope people posting here realize you have about 15 abilities at level 30.....

And I KNOW no one would be playing this game if it was capped at level 30.....

Never once have I seen a thread saying we should have anywhere near 15 abilities and that they love level 30 combat and feel that’s where the game should be until this thread.

[Shurrikhan]

I hope people posting here realize you have about 15 abilities at level 30.....

And I KNOW no one would be playing this game if it was capped at level 30.....

Never once have I seen a thread saying we should have anywhere near 15 abilities and that they love level 30 combat and feel that’s where the game should be until this thread.

But we don't have 15 actual player Actions (e.g. separable decisions) available at level 30. In some cases we scarcely have that many at level 70.

Natively, a Dragoon, for instance, can only HT, Combo 1, Combo 2, AoE Combo, Jump>Mirage, Dive/60>Mirage, Dive/120, Litany, Sight, Geir/Nost, Surge, Elusive, and Talon. 13 actual separable actions comprise the whole of its job. Assuming there was a melee death just after Tactician and a debuff that could actually be usefully cleansed by Crutch, that's only 3 more than dungeon-useful Role Actions, and 4 more than raid-useful Role Actions. When almost half your decisions are lackluster auxiliary system bloat, something's wrong.

When asking for 16 or so good keys we're not assuming the same button inefficiency as is notorious in the current game. We're assuming something a little more intuitive and sensible.

[Daniolaut]

But we don't have 15 actual player Actions (e.g. separable decisions) available at level 30. In some cases we scarcely have that many at level 70.

Natively, a Dragoon, for instance, can only HT, Combo 1, Combo 2, AoE Combo, Jump>Mirage, Dive/60>Mirage, Dive/120, Litany, Sight, Geir/Nost, Surge, Elusive, and Talon. 13 actual separable actions comprise the whole of its job. Assuming there was a melee death just after Tactician and a debuff that could actually be usefully cleansed by Crutch, that's only 3 more than dungeon-useful Role Actions, and 4 more than raid-useful Role Actions. When almost half your decisions are lackluster auxiliary system bloat, something's wrong.

When asking for 16 or so good keys we're not assuming the same button inefficiency as is notorious in the current game. We're assuming something a little more intuitive and sensible.

I have no idea what you just said.


Before i respond to you, i'm going to say something. What i really dont like is jobs like AST. Where you have 11 or so buttons to press to do just 1 action.
Cards buff the party thats all they do, yet you gotta Draw, Redraw, Royal Road, Empty Road, Spread, Undraw, Celestial Opp, Time Dilation, Minor Arcana, Sleeve Draw, and then execute (which is not an action but its the actual button you press to make it all go off at the end.)

But you dont see me in the healer threads asking them to "fix" AST cause i know some people love doing that, i personally do not.

DRG has 23 actions. Which are all separate and key to its identity. Saying it has 13, youre going to have to be more specific. Which ones are you reducing and how?

If yorue just asking them to make PvP actions/gameplay be merged into PvE, i would say no. Because in Pvp you get randomization, unpredictability and all sorts of other things, that cannot cannot be recreated easily for PvE.

If you like PvP go play PvP. If you like SAM play SAM. Do not ask them to reduce all jobs to be the same. DRG has 23 key actions, SAM has 15-19 or so. I have no clue why youre asking them to reduce all jobs to the same number.

Now for "your" side of the discussion, i will say if we get 3-5 new fresh unique actions per 10 levels until 99 we are going to have a serious problem (as that would easily exceed the 35 magic number i'm proposing.)

So by that standard DRG currently has 33 actions (including the role actions) and would be ok having 2-4 more actions without being severely bloated in my opinion. So if they want to add 5 "actions" per 10 levels, they would need to keep doing more things like Geirskogul > Nastrond, and how MCH's entire weaponskills get replaced.

Reducing DRG (and every job entirely) to 15 actions i'd flat out quit the game.

I also would strongly consider quitting the game if the PvP "1 button combo" was introduced into PvE. Thats my opinion, and no matter how many "likes" this post gets, i know i'm not alone. The game has been slowly losing all its unique qualities one by one and nothing has been added to replace them, and the playerbase keeps getting smaller and smaller. Which is not just a coincidence.

[Shurrikhan]

I have no idea what you just said.

tl;dr: Asking for 15-20 keys =/= asking for only 15-20 abilities. Most people asking for that have also advocated for further use of stacked keys (such as Fel Cleave / Inner Beast) and combo consolidation or an outright revision of combos (which waste up to 6+ keys in any given GCD for combo-based classes).

Before i respond to you, i'm going to say something. What i really dont like is jobs like AST. Where you have 11 or so buttons to press to do just 1 action.
Cards buff the party thats all they do, yet you gotta Draw, Redraw, Royal Road, Empty Road, Spread, Undraw, Celestial Opp, Time Dilation, Minor Arcana, Sleeve Draw, and then execute (which is not an action but its the actual button you press to make it all go off at the end.)

Fair enough. I would have thought it clear that neither do I?

I don't dislike that it's a thing, but it's a bit bloated for my tastes most of the time.

DRG has 23 actions. Which are all separate and key to its identity. Saying it has 13, youre going to have to be more specific. Which ones are you reducing and how?

It has 23 weaponskills/abilities. However, it can only decide between any of 13 things at a time. Under no circumstance will you ever use Disembowel without first using Impulse Drive, Chaos Thrust without Disembowel, Full Thrust without Vorpal, etc. And you literally cannot use Sonic Thrust, Mirage Dive, Fang and Claw, or Wheeling Thrust without a particular prior action. They are not separable; they are not decisions in and of themselves. You are merely doing the equivalent of holding the same button down for multiple GCDs. There is literally no reason for Sonic Thrust to be separate from Doom Spike, for Jump and SSD not to swap to Mirage Dive after they activate it -- as they cannot return from cooldown before their triggered Mirage Dive activation buff fades -- nor for Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust to be separate keys, as you cannot perform them in any other order. Heck, there is no reason for Impulse Drive, Disembowel, Chaos Thrust, Wheeling Thrust and Fang and Claw to be separate binds, nor the other combo. The ONLY scenario for even using a third bind between all of the single-target combo weaponskills would be useful is if you've already mistimed and started early the same combo you want to prep for immediate ideal use against an add or a return from an invulnerable state (where you can still combo against the invulnerable form).

If yorue just asking them to make PvP actions/gameplay be merged into PvE, i would say no. Because in Pvp you get randomization, unpredictability and all sorts of other things, that cannot cannot be recreated easily for PvE.

I'd prefer a more intuitive revision than stacked combo keys, personally, but I don't see what randomization would have to do with their benefits or disbenefits. The less predicatability, the more adaptation required, the more control you'd want. The problem is that many XIV jobs simply do not offer control anywhere near proportionate to their button counts, which is button bloat, by definition. If your actions are literally inseparable, such that a macro -- if not specifically hindered -- would always work to the same benefit... you got bloat.

If you like PvP go play PvP. If you like SAM play SAM. Do not ask them to reduce all jobs to be the same. DRG has 23 key actions, SAM has 15-19 or so. I have no clue why youre asking them to reduce all jobs to the same number.

1. SAM has 24 keys. Ninja has 25. Monk has 27. Yes, DRG has 23. Even with the highest percentage of bloat, DRG would have the scantest button count of any melee. Were that bloat removed, you'd be looking at the amount of decisions a DRG can actually make at any given time: 13. Why so low? Because its technical freedom of rotation is the least of any job (even if it's practical is quite high due to Mirage Dive and its related mechanics).
   
2. I never asked that all jobs have the same button count. I responded to you quite solely to point out your strawman argument -- i.e that people who wanted fewer buttons also wanted reduced complexity, despite the posters explicitly stating the opposite in many cases -- and to explain why there's a disconnection between button count, ability count, and the available actions one can actually take at a given time in a game as button-bloated as XIV.

Note: "Button bloat" has little to do with button count and almost everything to do with wasted buttons.

Now for "your" side of the discussion, i will say if we get 3-5 new fresh unique actions per 10 levels until 99 we are going to have a serious problem (as that would easily exceed the 35 magic number i'm proposing.)

This is... my side? I've said nothing like this. I merely pointed out that other MMOs' (in this case, WoW's) failure to augment the gameplay of classes/jobs with new, more fluid, or more intuitive skills in recent expansions has been met with harsh criticism, and that most WoW players did not see new skills as being "forced" upon them. Personally, I'd argue differently for XIV, wherein many an action that shouldn't be a separate bind is forced into the game as one just to push a sales point of "X new abilities for each job!". Simply put, I find stagnation the result, typically, of wasted opportunities erred of excess caution, and bloat outright bad design. That is my side of the argument, if you care to know it.

So by that standard DRG currently has 33 actions (including the role actions) and would be ok having 2-4 more actions without being severely bloated in my opinion. So if they want to add 5 "actions" per 10 levels, they would need to keep doing more things like Geirskogul > Nastrond, and how MCH's entire weaponskills get replaced.

Yes. Yes they would. And in the first case, they should. When two things, like Nastrond and Geirskogul, are mutually exclusive, they should be stacked. Personally I don't care much for upgrade abilities, but (apart from Stone IV) at least the new visuals help when essentially cheating the ability count (hopefully just because the job frankly didn't need anything more added to it).

Consider also, though -- how satisfying are the additional 10 buttons from Role Actions? Would you have any less required of you, any reduced complexity, from having to actually position yourself properly even during the challenging moments we reserve TN for? Would healing be any less interesting if Bloodbath were instead integrated into a more fluid and bankable form of Life Surge or into Blood of the Dragon, a more vital Third Eye, improvements on Shade Shift, and Monk traits, each without needing the additional key?

Reducing DRG (and every job entirely) to 15 actions i'd flat out quit the game.

Which 15 actions? And, 15 actions? Or 15 decisions? Because one's already more than you've got now.

I also would strongly consider quitting the game if the PvP "1 button combo" was introduced into PvE. Thats my opinion, and no matter how many "likes" this post gets, i know i'm not alone. The game has been slowly losing all its unique qualities one by one and nothing has been added to replace them, and the playerbase keeps getting smaller and smaller. Which is not just a coincidence.

I don't much see why. It's already the reality of PvE. Heck, you could still bind the same function to buttons 1,2,3,4, and 5 if you wanted to do your 5-step combo with each GCD separately bound. Yes, it'd be the same thing. But, that's because it really is that stale... already.