How many skills is too many?

[Kaethra]

This game is great because of the complexity of the combat system - I agree that some skills are not needed.. but making it simple and pressing 1-4 for your entire life is absolutely ridiculous and needs to be removed from all MMO's for the laziness of development.

No one suggested that. Like literally no one.

But if you think number of skills makes for complexity, then try Everquest 2. My Shadowknight used 3 hotbars of active skills (36), half a hotbar for potions and consumbales (6), and 1 and a half for buffs (18). Thats 60 buttons. Combat there was much simpler than FFXIV, and even ESO where you have like 6 skills.

We don't want less skills. We want less hotbars and buttons.

I suggested a system that uses combos similar to mudras, which would introduce quite a bit more skill (maybe even more than the average player on this forum could handle) than simply pruning abilities (it doesn't prune them).

Imagine if you had Cure, Cure II, Cure III and Medica, while pruning away Medica II. If you use Cure, then Cure II. When you use Cure III it is a large single target efficient heal. If you use Cure then Medica, then Cure III, it works like it does now. If you use Cure, then Cure II, and then do Medica, it fires off an AOE regen like Medica II did.

See what happened there? I actually introduced an extra ability compared to what we have now and pruned one off the bar. So instead of 5 abilities taking 5 buttons. I have 6 taking up 4. And who would have thought to use Combos like that on a WHM? And if you need a Medica II spell immediately, then that is what Swiftcast is for. Can even tie Swiftcast (likely a crossrole candidate) to immediate getting the 3rd level combo out in a spell. Could even remove/reduce the cooldown on Swiftcast and just have it increase the MP cost of the spell its being used for.

Do something like this for all classes, as well as condensing spells/skills and you could EASILY reduce the hotbars to under 15 per job and role while still having over 25 skills. For example, condensing Kiss of the Wasp and Viper into one skill. Using the skill activates Wasp, activating it again activates Viper, and then doing so again puts Wasp back. Again.. 1 button, two skills. Can even add a third poison into that little rotation if they wanted.

Speaking of Ninjas. They could put Mug's effect into Assassinate and increase the potency. Still have the 'two' skills, in one.

Everything I mentioned doesn't make the game easier to master. Just easier in a physical sense to play. And the benefit is less hotbars, more screen real estate.

[Nixxe]

Imagine if you had Cure, Cure II, Cure III and Medica, while pruning away Medica II. If you use Cure, then Cure II. When you use Cure III it is a large single target efficient heal. If you use Cure then Medica, then Cure III, it works like it does now. If you use Cure, then Cure II, and then do Medica, it fires off an AOE regen like Medica II did.

That sounds really annoying. It's not even a question of skill at that point, but of rote memorization of various combos.

[Jim_Berry]

Just be glad you don't have to manage THIS many:

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/White_Mage

[Gumbercules]

Just be glad you don't have to manage THIS many:

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/White_Mage

lol shoulda linked rdm instead :P

or wow during the times when you had to have a "press this next!" addons cuz of all the actual active stuff going on XD

[Jim_Berry]

lol shoulda linked rdm instead :P

or wow during the times when you had to have a "press this next!" addons cuz of all the actual active stuff going on XD

You're right:

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Mage

[Gumbercules]

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Mage

can't leave this one out either :P

[Ama_Hamada]

FFXI had a different system though, it was easy to manage that though macros or menu. I miss being able to use stuff though menu as it made targeting easier. In FFXIV, it is so annoying at times how I need the camera to be zoomed out and angels up in a specific direction to be able tab over something, or that little hill in the ground causing "unable to see target"

[Vhailor]

It's never a choice.

Anyway, more than 10 is too much.

GW2 has the best system for this kind of combat. One auto attack spell and the rest are cooldowns. Change stance/weapon and you get different spells.

GW2 is a distinctly different game. Its depth of combat comes from skills paired with constant movement; FFXIV doesn't have this attribute. If we had only 10 abilities in FFXIV, the game would be incredibly boring.

Back to FFXIV, I don't understand why we need to bind all those skills. For example, Chaos Thrust and True Thrust combos could've been 2 buttons instead of 6. Cleric Stance could change our hotbar to be a DPS one, since we won't be healing when it's active, and won't be DPSing when it's not.

Chaos Thrust and True Thrust, as combos, would be boring and devoid of any semblance of skill. That's why they aren't two buttons. Lengthening the combo requires players to maintain proper positioning whilst dodging ground AoE attacks and engaging attacks; a single button for a combo would either not involve this balancing act, or would be too rigid.

Cleric's Stance also can't just 'change our hotbar' because sometimes, WHMs DO heal whilst in Cleric's Stance. It's not ideal, but every so often, something bad happens right after Cleric's Stance is brought up. At that point, it's better to toss off a weak heal than none at all (or Benediction if need be).

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As to the OP's question, I think there are 'too many' skills if certain abilities become effectively ignored for the sake of button management. The exact number varies based on the game system. FFXI, for instance, could handle far more abilities than FFXIV because its combat was slower-paced, thereby improving the ability management side of things. GW2, being so active with regards to movement, can't handle as many abilities as FFXIV can. For XIV itself, I'd peg the number of manageable skills at around 45-50. If it starts approaching 60, I think that will be 'too much'.

[Shurrikhan]

GW2 is a distinctly different game. Its depth of combat comes from skills paired with constant movement; FFXIV doesn't have this attribute. If we had only 10 abilities in FFXIV, the game would be incredibly boring.

While true, shouldn't that point out how little FFXIV has going on underneath its skill arsenals to actually make them interesting. Is that not a more important place to start?

Chaos Thrust and True Thrust, as combos, would be boring and devoid of any semblance of skill. That's why they aren't two buttons. Lengthening the combo requires players to maintain proper positioning whilst dodging ground AoE attacks and engaging attacks; a single button for a combo would either not involve this balancing act, or would be too rigid.

How is there any difference apart from button count (bloat) in an entirely GCD-locked game between a 3-part skill auto-activating its next step within the same decision on the following GCD vs. you queuing each of three parts for, effectively, the same skill (same decision) each with a different key? There is no difference in length. There is no difference in positioning. One is simply automatically "macroed" for you as to spare you a total of 4 (6 as of HW) keys. You still have to reposition, very rapidly in the case of F&C/WT, before each GCD refreshes.

Cleric's Stance also can't just 'change our hotbar' because sometimes, WHMs DO heal whilst in Cleric's Stance. It's not ideal, but every so often, something bad happens right after Cleric's Stance is brought up. At that point, it's better to toss off a weak heal than none at all (or Benediction if need be).

That's certainly the case, but no system has ever been developed or refused over nonessentials. Even now, I hear as many claims as point out its weak-heal necessity that Cleric Stance ought either to be punishing enough to be a real concern, or removed outright as to save Conjurers/Healers that key-space. Unless the difference between 0% healing potency and 30% healing potency over the 5-second window would prevent the use of Cleric Stance entirely, then the ability to toss out weak heals is not worth the button count. That said, as the two arsenal sets that would otherwise be separated are far from even, and neither half would have nearly the key count of an unsplit arsenal class (e.g. any DPS or tank), truly splitting the keys into an offensive and curative set would feel... off, to say the least. Moreover, we may yet see Cleric Stance become something unique to Conjurer, that may or may not (effectively) be a mere set-toggle, while Scholar and Astrologian each take on their own stance mechanic, if any.

[XiXiQ]

That sounds really annoying. It's not even a question of skill at that point, but of rote memorization of various combos.

that's what we have already.