How many skills is too many?

[Shurrikhan]

WHYYYYY do so many people want this to turn into WoW simplicity of pressing the 4-5 skills... and thats it.

If the game ever turned into that crap that is the WoW skill system (3-4 skills, 2 situationals, 2 buffs) I'd quit on the spot and be very sad.

This game is great because of the complexity of the combat system - I agree that some skills are not needed.. but making it simple and pressing 1-4 for your entire life is absolutely ridiculous and needs to be removed from all MMO's for the laziness of development.

I do not know, especially considering you can have fewer keys still, yet have more abilities and consequent complexity.

I'd be hard pressed to call XIV combat complex, to be honest—my rotations are frequently longer, more nuanced, and more reactive in games that have 12 keys—but it is a step up from many Legion classes.

[Makeda]

WHYYYYY do so many people want this to turn into WoW simplicity of pressing the 4-5 skills... and thats it.

If the game ever turned into that crap that is the WoW skill system (3-4 skills, 2 situationals, 2 buffs) I'd quit on the spot and be very sad.

WoW has dozens of skills, most of which you never use. I just left WoW - so that is current as of April 2017. But yes, it has a very simplistic combat engine.

Wildstar gives you an action bar of about 8 skills, and about half of them end up being bloat, yet it has the most complex combat system of any MMO on the market. Guild Wars 2 as well - but it's combat engine is broken by players being able to do so much DPS they can kill bosses before mechanics become an issue... Otherwise it has all the complexity of Wildstar, but magically failed to deliver a good result.

The number of buttons on your screen is NOT relevant to the complexity. Fight design, the need to move, aim, time things, and so on - that is where the complexity lies. As the difference between Wildstar and Guild Wars 2 points out - just streamlining and getting these movement/aim/timing things right is still NOT enough... good combat engine design is hard.

[Ririta]

If the game ever turned into that crap that is the WoW skill system (3-4 skills, 2 situationals, 2 buffs) I'd quit on the spot and be very sad.

Now imagine all the people who left because they can't pull good DPS while paying attention to over 30 buttons + mechanics + cooldowns.

[Nixxe]

Now imagine all the people who left because they can't pull good DPS while paying attention to over 30 buttons + mechanics + cooldowns.

You don't need to pay attention to 30 buttons. WoW's rotations started out very simple for the most part, often literally one or two buttons, when the number of buttons were at their peak (I think I had 45-50 on a warrior in Wrath including some PVP macros). Blizzard began introducing greater complexity alongside skill pruning due to the playerbase becoming increasingly skilled overall as average tenure increased. On top of that, a lot of abilities in WoW are either extremely niche and can be ignored most of the time, are not ever used in combat ever, or are otherwise very limited in use such that it's not a big deal if lesser skilled players want to ignore them entirely, and the bulk of what Blizzard has pruned were those types of abilities. In terms of rotations, most of them use 10 abilities or so and that's about as many as they've ever used. The exact number depends on the class and there are defensive cooldowns on top of that, but it's not exactly hard to manage it, and the relative complexity of WoW's combat isn't terribly different from FFXIV's until you start getting into talents or perhaps encounter design (I'm not very experienced with raiding in this game, let alone savage, so I can't say for sure).

[Kaethra]

This game is great because of the complexity of the combat system - I agree that some skills are not needed.. but making it simple and pressing 1-4 for your entire life is absolutely ridiculous and needs to be removed from all MMO's for the laziness of development.

No one suggested that. Like literally no one.

But if you think number of skills makes for complexity, then try Everquest 2. My Shadowknight used 3 hotbars of active skills (36), half a hotbar for potions and consumbales (6), and 1 and a half for buffs (18). Thats 60 buttons. Combat there was much simpler than FFXIV, and even ESO where you have like 6 skills.

We don't want less skills. We want less hotbars and buttons.

I suggested a system that uses combos similar to mudras, which would introduce quite a bit more skill (maybe even more than the average player on this forum could handle) than simply pruning abilities (it doesn't prune them).

Imagine if you had Cure, Cure II, Cure III and Medica, while pruning away Medica II. If you use Cure, then Cure II. When you use Cure III it is a large single target efficient heal. If you use Cure then Medica, then Cure III, it works like it does now. If you use Cure, then Cure II, and then do Medica, it fires off an AOE regen like Medica II did.

See what happened there? I actually introduced an extra ability compared to what we have now and pruned one off the bar. So instead of 5 abilities taking 5 buttons. I have 6 taking up 4. And who would have thought to use Combos like that on a WHM? And if you need a Medica II spell immediately, then that is what Swiftcast is for. Can even tie Swiftcast (likely a crossrole candidate) to immediate getting the 3rd level combo out in a spell. Could even remove/reduce the cooldown on Swiftcast and just have it increase the MP cost of the spell its being used for.

Do something like this for all classes, as well as condensing spells/skills and you could EASILY reduce the hotbars to under 15 per job and role while still having over 25 skills. For example, condensing Kiss of the Wasp and Viper into one skill. Using the skill activates Wasp, activating it again activates Viper, and then doing so again puts Wasp back. Again.. 1 button, two skills. Can even add a third poison into that little rotation if they wanted.

Speaking of Ninjas. They could put Mug's effect into Assassinate and increase the potency. Still have the 'two' skills, in one.

Everything I mentioned doesn't make the game easier to master. Just easier in a physical sense to play. And the benefit is less hotbars, more screen real estate.

[Nixxe]

Imagine if you had Cure, Cure II, Cure III and Medica, while pruning away Medica II. If you use Cure, then Cure II. When you use Cure III it is a large single target efficient heal. If you use Cure then Medica, then Cure III, it works like it does now. If you use Cure, then Cure II, and then do Medica, it fires off an AOE regen like Medica II did.

That sounds really annoying. It's not even a question of skill at that point, but of rote memorization of various combos.

[XiXiQ]

That sounds really annoying. It's not even a question of skill at that point, but of rote memorization of various combos.

that's what we have already.

[Nixxe]

that's what we have already.

In a select few cases.

[Jim_Berry]

Just be glad you don't have to manage THIS many:

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/White_Mage

[Gumbercules]

Just be glad you don't have to manage THIS many:

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/White_Mage

lol shoulda linked rdm instead :P

or wow during the times when you had to have a "press this next!" addons cuz of all the actual active stuff going on XD