Determination during healing.

[kikix12]

ISP: Vectra

Type of Internet Connection: No idea, such things aren't really passed on to clients here. What I know is that it is neither fiber nor dial-up.

Internet Connection Speed: About 10Mb/s actual speed.

Date & Time: Noticed about 20:00 UTC/GMT+2. It's constant for weeks at least though.

Frequency: Always

World: Midgardsormr

Character Name: Seraphitia Faro

Retainer Name: None.

NPC Name: None.

Monster Name: None.

Class/Level: Scholar lvl60, White Mage lvl60.

Party or Solo: Solo

Race: Migo'te

In-Game Time: Don't remember.

Area and Coordinates: Wolves Den, right next to the priest NPC that sells PvP gear.

Housing: None.

Steps: 1) Use a healer to cast a healing spell, note the heals.
2) Use a healer with the same healing potency stat and healing potency spell but lower/higher determination and cast the spell, noting the heals.
3) Compare the multiple castings of the heals with only determination different (ignore critical heals).


Two healers at lvl60 with the exact same healing potency stat, with the same healing potency spell, but different by 101 determination. Both heal virtually the same amount of HP, despite the large difference in determination.
The high and low numbers differ by a statistical error (due to randomness), the average seems to slightly be higher for the higher determination character, but not even by half of the determination difference.

Checked by casting Cure/Physick on myself a bunch of times without Cleric Stance or any buffs on.

If this is working as intended, please consider this a report on a wrong description of the determination stat.


System:

Wersja 6.3.9600 Kompilacja 9600
Dodatkowy opis systemu operacyjnego Niedostępne
Producent systemu operacyjnego Microsoft Corporation
Producent systemu TOSHIBA
Model systemu SATELLITE L50-A-16Q
Typ systemu x64-based PC
Jednostka magazynowa systemu PSKJNE
Procesor Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3630QM CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 MHz, Rdzenie: 4, Procesory logiczne: 8
Wersja/data systemu BIOS Insyde Corp. 1.20, 2013-05-15
Wersja SMBIOS 2.7
Wersja kontrolera osadzonego 1.10
Tryb systemu BIOS UEFI
Producent płyty głównej Intel
Model płyty głównej Niedostępne
Nazwa płyty głównej Płyta główna
Rola platformy Urządzenie przenośne
Stan bezpiecznego rozruchu Włączone
Konfiguracja PCR7 Powiązanie nie jest możliwe
Katalog systemu Windows C:\WINDOWS
Katalog systemowy C:\WINDOWS\system32
Urządzenie rozruchowe \Device\HarddiskVolume2
Ustawienia regionalne Polska
Warstwa abstrakcji sprzętu Wersja = "6.3.9600.17196"
Strefa czasowa Europa Środkowa (czas letni)
Zainstalowana pamięć fizyczna (RAM) 8,00 GB
Całkowita pamięć fizyczna 7,88 GB
Dostępna pamięć fizyczna 5,79 GB
Całkowity rozmiar pamięci wirtualnej 9,13 GB
Dostępna pamięć wirtualna 7,03 GB
Obszar pliku stronicowania 1,25 GB
Plik stronicowania C:\pagefile.sys
Hyper-V — rozszerzenia trybu monitorowania maszyny wirtualnej Tak
Hyper-V — rozszerzenia translacji adresów drugiego poziomu Tak
Hyper-V — wirtualizacja włączona w oprogramowaniu układowym Tak
Hyper-V — zapobieganie wykonywaniu danych Tak

[Ekran]

Element Wartość
Nazwa NVIDIA GeForce GT 740M
Identyfikator urządzenia PNP PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_1292&SUBSYS_FA431179&REV_A1\4&8441B34&0&0008
Typ karty GeForce GT 740M, NVIDIA zgodne
Opis karty NVIDIA GeForce GT 740M
Pamięć RAM karty (2*147*483*648) bajtów
Zainstalowane sterowniki nvd3dumx.dll,nvwgf2umx.dll,nvwgf2umx.dll,nvd3dum,nvwgf2um,nvwgf2um
Wersja sterownika 21.21.13.7684
Plik INF oem32.inf (sekcja Section042)
Płaszczyzny kolorów Niedostępne
Pozycje tabeli kolorów Niedostępne
Rozdzielczość Niedostępne
Bitów/piksel Niedostępne
Adres pamięci 0xD2000000-0xD2FFFFFF
Adres pamięci 0xA0000000-0xBFFFFFFF
Adres pamięci 0xB0000000-0xB1FFFFFF
Port We/Wy 0x00003F80-0x00003FFF
Kanał IRQ IRQ 16
Sterownik c:\windows\system32\drivers\nvlddmkm.sys (21.21.13.7684, 13,54 MB (14*195*640 bajtów), 2017-03-16 04:38)

Nazwa Intel(R) HD Graphics 4000
Identyfikator urządzenia PNP PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_0166&SUBSYS_FA431179&REV_09\3&11583659&0&10
Typ karty Intel(R) HD Graphics Family, Intel Corporation zgodne
Opis karty Intel(R) HD Graphics 4000
Pamięć RAM karty (2*080*374*784) bajtów
Zainstalowane sterowniki igdumdim64.dll,igd10iumd64.dll,igd10iumd64.dll,igdumdim32,igd10iumd32,igd10iumd32
Wersja sterownika 10.18.10.3345
Plik INF oem28.inf (sekcja iIVBM_w81_P0)
Płaszczyzny kolorów Niedostępne
Pozycje tabeli kolorów 4294967296
Rozdzielczość 1366 x 768 x 59 Hz
Bitów/piksel 32
Adres pamięci 0xD3000000-0xD33FFFFF
Adres pamięci 0xC0000000-0xCFFFFFFF
Port We/Wy 0x00004000-0x0000403F
Kanał IRQ IRQ 4294967293
Sterownik c:\windows\system32\drivers\igdkmd64.sys (10.18.10.3345, 4,00 MB (4*195*840 bajtów), 2013-11-04 18:22)


I'm a Pole using Polish system, so unless I'll know what English program to download and use for collecting this data, dumping it in Polish is all I can do.

Internet Explorer: 11

[Mhaeric]

Well, yes. That seems working as intended. Determination has much less weight than other stats when calculating output. 101 is a relatively small difference as well so you're definitely not going to see a huge difference. I'd guess a difference of about 25-30 points of damage/healing on average. This is part of the reason why crit is generally seen as a superior stat. (The rest of the story being that crit increases both the chance of and output of crits so it double dips.)

Whether one feels that 'working as intended' is good enough or not is a different question, but this isn't a bug.

[kikix12]

Determination has much less weight than other stats when calculating output.

That certainly is what players believe in, not necessarily how it should be. Though I agree its effect is most likely meant to be smaller due to how universal it is, just how much?! As it is, its effect is almost non-existent, making it a "dead" stat.

101 is a relatively small difference as well so you're definitely not going to see a huge difference. I'd guess a difference of about 25-30 points of damage/healing on average.

I'm sorry, but a difference of about 7,5% of the healing potency stat is not a small difference. Not when we're talking heals in thousandths. Also, unfortunately, but the apparent output was the same, as I wrote. What may have increased seemed to be only the average. Then again, it's rather difficult to say with the large degree of randomness and lack of in-game means of checking heals per second.
That being said, the effect IS way too small. At that level, whatever effect it may have, is such, that every single stat would be better than determination in all but the most severe cases. The problem is...if someone is in that severe case, then they're most likely already going to be wiped anyway. So yeah, anything else would be better.

This is part of the reason why crit is generally seen as a superior stat.

Doesn't matter. I'm not comparing determination with crit, nor talking about its utility or whatever. I'm reporting a possible bug or an error in a tooltip since there is a stat that shows no noticeable results on something it should affect. Note the noticeable. Parsers are not part of the game.

Whether one feels that 'working as intended' is good enough or not is a different question, but this isn't a bug.

Hence why the last about considering it an error in description. There is such a thing as "expectation". Be it in casual situations or in law, when something is said or written, it is expected to be noticeable, unless noted otherwise. For the tooltip to be correct, it should note something along the lines "(...) and increases healing effects by a minimal amount". That is, IF it does have at least that minimal amount. Which, at lvl60 at the very least, I'm not entirely convinced of courtesy of the large brackets.

Don't get me wrong. All we're talking about here is a "possibility". There are many bugs and such that are left unnoticed, simply because no one even tried to bring them up to people that know whether it should be as it is or not. Just because they look "normal" to players. I'm sure that if you have large experience with MMO's in general that you were surprised at least sometimes when seeing in patch notes "fixed this and that", thinking that it was meant to be like that. I just want to make absolutely sure that this is not one such skipped issue. And if it is not, then to disillusion players of the stat. I mean, if they want it to be an effectively dead stat...then by all means. But at least be open about it. Changing the tooltip is a very easy and quick thing to do, provided you do it "on the side", along other changes.

[Mhaeric]

Don't get me wrong. All we're talking about here is a "possibility". There are many bugs and such that are left unnoticed, simply because no one even tried to bring them up to people that know whether it should be as it is or not. Just because they look "normal" to players. I'm sure that if you have large experience with MMO's in general that you were surprised at least sometimes when seeing in patch notes "fixed this and that", thinking that it was meant to be like that. I just want to make absolutely sure that this is not one such skipped issue. And if it is not, then to disillusion players of the stat. I mean, if they want it to be an effectively dead stat...then by all means. But at least be open about it. Changing the tooltip is a very easy and quick thing to do, provided you do it "on the side", along other changes.

Except that people have actually run numbers in game and come up with stat weights and Determination balances approximately equally with the other stats in terms of relative effectiveness, although it varies from class to class and takes into account things other than raw dps/hps. If there was something buggy going on, people would have noticed it long before now due to the below numbers being very unbalanced.

The following weights taken from Ariyala's BiS solver are all relative to 1 point of Mind. I.e. 9.128 means each point of weapon damage is equivalently effective as 9.128 points of mind.

SCH:
Weapon damage gives 9.128
Mnd: 1.0
Crit: 0.266
Det: 0.190
Sps: 0.366

WHM:
Weapon damage: 9.128
Mnd: 1.0
Crit: 0.182
Det: 0.159
Sps: 0.135

AST:
Weapon damage: 8.372
Mnd: 1.0
Crit: 0.204
Det: 0.325
Sps: 0.178

[kikix12]

Sorry, but what do you mean to prove?! I really don't know. Unless Ariyala is a worker of Square Enix (she may or may not, I don't know), it's irrelevant. As I said, players can overlook something that was not intended in that way, thinking it was. That's why I brought it here. The only ones that can say whether it works as intended or not are the developers. Not you, not the number-crunchers and not the thousandths of players that may or may not have taken note of it.

Seeing as you writing all what you did write will not change a thing, you're just wasting your time. Clearly, "crunching numbers" shows how something is. It does not show whether it should be like that.

Just leave it as is. I am not asking anyone to believe it being a bug or anything. I am merely asking the developers to check whether it works as they intended for it to work. If it does...well, it'll just stay as that. Simple as that.

[Canadane]

That certainly is what players believe in, not necessarily how it should be. Though I agree its effect is most likely meant to be smaller due to how universal it is, just how much?! As it is, its effect is almost non-existent, making it a "dead" stat.

Almost all substats are just the same. The game is almost entirely ilvl > anything, with only minor exceptions. Because tied to the ilvl is WD and main stats. All substats are very pitiful.
And it's only going to get worse in the next expansion! D:

[Mhaeric]

Sorry, but what do you mean to prove?! I really don't know. Unless Ariyala is a worker of Square Enix (she may or may not, I don't know), it's irrelevant. As I said, players can overlook something that was not intended in that way, thinking it was. That's why I brought it here. The only ones that can say whether it works as intended or not are the developers. Not you, not the number-crunchers and not the thousandths of players that may or may not have taken note of it.

Seeing as you writing all what you did write will not change a thing, you're just wasting your time. Clearly, "crunching numbers" shows how something is. It does not show whether it should be like that.

Just leave it as is. I am not asking anyone to believe it being a bug or anything. I am merely asking the developers to check whether it works as they intended for it to work. If it does...well, it'll just stay as that. Simple as that.

You filed it as a bug. This will only be moved to the "Not a bug" pile in a day or two and is most definitely working as intended. The numbers were to show you that people have actually done more number crunching than you and your friend casting a couple of times and determined that determination as a relatively similar effect as the other other secondary stats. Ergo,not a bug.

[LalaRu]

I think any stat besides the main one of the given job, and VIT, is quite irrelevant. And the only one that got a reason to matter in the times of the Darklight armor, accuracy, I've read somewhere (hope had read correctly, ofc) is going to be dismissed.

I'm ok with this, more simple stat system means less troubles on setup your set or choose between pieces for same slot, and you can focus more on everything else of the game. An half-simple system where you make secondary stats matters more, imho goes nowhere, because minmax players are still unhappy for this still too simple, and casual players unhappy because on top of the harassment they already get for not being "savage-skilled", it will be added the one for not have "the good secondary" setup on armor.