4.0 specialization

[Roth_Trailfinder]

Actually, Byregot's Brow and Innovative Touch are not specialist actions. They can be used by any class without the Soul Stone.

I hate to correct you, Camie, but Innovative Touch *IS* a specialist action. For 8 CP you have a 40% chance (that's base, it goes up to 70% chance with SH2) of a 100% Efficiency Touch, same as Basic/Hasty, and after that is applied, you get Innovation.

I think both you and Chameleon were thinking of Precise Touch, which is a version of Basic Touch that can only be used on Good/Excellent but adds 2 to IQ stack rather than merely 1.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

I hate to correct you, Camie, but Innovative Touch *IS* a specialist action. For 8 CP you have a 40% chance (that's base, it goes up to 70% chance with SH2) of a 100% Efficiency Touch, same as Basic/Hasty, and after that is applied, you get Innovation.

I think both you and Chameleon were thinking of Precise Touch, which is a version of Basic Touch that can only be used on Good/Excellent but adds 2 to IQ stack rather than merely 1.

Oh DUH, what was I thinking!!! Somehow, I made that stupid mistake! LMAOOOO!
Thanks for correcting me on this! XD
Gonna cross that out in my earlier post.

[javid]

Brow is not useless at all! It's now commonly used to prevent a Byregot's Blessing falling onto a Poor condition during a macro.

It's functional for macros.......................................... and even still it hurts you more than it helps, since it will also proc the macro on a good condition

and a GOOD condition brow (50%+ 150% + 10%*[IQ-1]) is still weaker than a normal condition blessing with ing2 (ing2+100+20%[IQ-1]).... at max IQ

note: normal blessings remain better than GOOD brow @ IQ = x10 (IFF ing2 is at LEAST 17% BUFF) ; and normal blessings remains better than GOOD brow absolutely at IQ=x11 [doesn't matter the value of ing2 buff].

It's not a HORRIBLE trade......so I agree its still functional

[Caimie_Tsukino]

It's functional for macros.......................................... and even still it hurts you more than it helps, since it will also proc the macro on a good condition

and a GOOD condition brow (50%+ 150% + 10%*[IQ-1]) is still weaker than a normal condition blessing with ing2 (ing2+100+20%[IQ-1]).... at max IQ

note: normal blessings remain better than GOOD brow @ IQ = x10 (IFF ing2 is at LEAST 17% BUFF) ; and normal blessings remains better than GOOD brow absolutely at IQ=x11 [doesn't matter the value of ing2 buff].

It's not a HORRIBLE trade......so I agree its still functional

Good condition and Excellent condition give additional +50% and +150% CURRENT QUALITY GAIN (not bonus control) to your action respectively, whereas the IQ stacks give +20% BASE CONTROL per stack. So you can't just add them all up like you did up there, or the math will go wrong.

(P.S. This is also why when IQ stack is low, "Good" and Innovation's effect are very similar. But when IQ stack is high, "Good" is always of a higher priority than Innovation. e.g. if your base control is 900, but you are already at IQ8, and your current control is like 2340. Let's say it's supposed be translated to a quality gain of 500 for your Byregot's Blessing. Innovation would add 450 control to you 2340, resulting in 2790 control, which will be translated to a quality gain of about 600. But if a Good procs right before your Innovation, and you use it on your Byregot's Blessing, it'll result in a quality increase of 750. The result is far more superior than Innovation or even Innovation+Ingenuity II. Please remember that the numbers up there hasn't taken Great Strides into account yet. So the numbers should be 2x when Great Strides is used... further increasing the power difference.)

Indeed, at IQ6 or above, although Brow is always weaker than Blessing, a Brow on a Good condition is still very strong. If a Blessing on IQ10 can hit 100% HQ rate, then a Brow on IQ10 + a Good will very, very likely do it too.

The "bad" thing about Brow, is that it can only be used when Good or Excellent procs, and you need SH II active to make sure it's 100% secure, which is a pain.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

At IQ 1-5, Brow is actualy stronger than Blessing. At IQ6, they are equal. Ant IQ7+ Blessing is stronger. That is simply a look at their respective power levels (at IQ6 both are at 200% power).

Considering that Blessing requires SH1 to make sure its 100% secure, the extra 3 CP for Brow should not be that difficult?

[javid]

I didn't just simply add them up; I applied them where they impact your overal quality. You can actually test this out (which I have but you should check it out for yourself)


But for example the formula for a final touch is = Great_Stride*[condition+ing+Byregots]*[total control]; notice the portion of the equation outside of "total control" (the condition+ing + byregots), that's what I was playing with in the eariler post.

And the reason that Innovation is weaker than GOOD condition is b/c Innovation interacts with your base control; while GOOD condition interacts with your sum total control.


It's actually not a difficult test to run but its a bit expensive . Here are your parameters:

pick a cheap syn between a 1-4 star recipes (such that we're sure ingenuity [1 or 2] will give a bonus.

First find out the exact bonus of ingenuity [ very simple can't mess that up. do not use IQ]

Next to demonstrate that ingenuity interacts ON the total CURRENT amount of control by repeating the first experiment WITH Inner Quiet. [ramp up your IQ under ingenuity and compare each NORMAL touch achieved to its corresponding IQ NORMAL touch WITHOUT ingenuity]

We know the GOOD condition gives 50% on TOTAL control; but if you're not convinced buy a ton a delineations (the expensive part) and ramp up you control thru IQ stacks and compare your GOOD condition touches vs the same lvl of IQ NORMAL condition touches.

Now this is where the experiment gets hard. Try to line up a GOOD condition with several stacks of IQ [IQ=2, 3, 4 for example] WHILE under the effect of ING. if you're successful you'll find out that CONDITION does add directly to ING [CONDITION + ING]

We only ready know Byregots acts on TOTAL control....it already tells us that point blank >< . So if you have 3 skills that act directly on TOTAL control; then you have byregots*total_control and ing*total_control and CONDITION*total_control =

[CONDITION +ING+ BYREGOTS]*total_control

[Caimie_Tsukino]

SNIP

Ah, I see now. Yes, your calculations were correct. Sorry, I wrongly accused you.

[ChameleonMS]

I think both you and Chameleon were thinking of Precise Touch

Nope, just a screw up on my part, not remembering Innovative Touch does not need a proc to activate. I like Precise Touch exactly the way it is.

Now that I think about it, the Soul Stone should grant 5 unlearned cross class skills. After all, they will need Byregot's Blessing, which already occupies 1 slot. If they put on Maker's Mark and Flawless Syn, that's 3 slots occupied already. They will likely need a little bit more, like Steady Hand II or Piece by Piece as well. With this arrangement, they won't even be able to equip Careful Syn II and Comfort Zone, giving them a slight handicap comparing to Omnis.

My appologies, I did not properly articulate my theory. I meant you would accumulate 3 cross class skills for each Soul Stone used; giving you a total of 9 skills. This would be very competitive with OMNIs.

The other option would be simply, it a Soul Stone is equipped, you have access to all cross class skills. This would allow the single class crafter to have equal footing.