4.0 specialization

**Silverbane** · 05-06-2017 09:10 AM

Perhaps I'm not the norm, but once recipes weren't locked behind specialization, the only thing I found useful about it was the bonuses the soul-stone gave me. On the other hand, getting those soul stones was essentially free.

Perhaps Specialization should be more like Jobs in the DoW classes: you need some but not much of another (crafting) class to become the "craft Job", it changes what skills you can cross-class, and it provides powerful abilities not available in any other job or class. Might be more interesting. And since you could always change to, say, regular LWR Class instead of Specialist Leatherworker Job (just as WHM can always run as CNJ is they want) there'd by no downside. And there'd be no need to a limit on the number of Crafter Jobs you could have.

And it might be fun. Skills and therefore rotations might be different for each crafting "Job," and inevitably some jobs would find it easier to do high-level crafts than some others. That's not a bad thing: it means good sproduced by those Specialists might sell at a premium, rewarding those who master the more difficult Craft Jobs.

**javid** · 05-06-2017 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Silverbane

snipp

Spc system already offer more stats and abilities not available to regular classes. So it's already like a job (DOW or DOM).

However SE has this dilemma where they don't want to get rid of Omni crafters, nor do they want omni to be the norm. The original idea of limiting each player to 3 Spc lended well to rewarding the crafter with 1-3 classes maxed and it encouraged players to work together-- interdependence.

But then Omni crafters like yourself...said I don't wanna work with anybody else I want to be self-sustaining.... Well SE came up with a GREAT solution that keeps the majority of 1-3 crafter players interdependent while allowing the more dedicated self-sufficient omni crafters "contentment"; they made RED SCRIPTS uncapped!!! Now you can swap between spc at will BUT it will cost you a grind (not a terribly long grind; you can macro 480 RED'S in 15min??).

Again the issue with giving omni crafters complete access is it will marginalize the crafters that can only make 1 to 2 items needed in a several part end-product synthesis. And that is not the same as crafters that have access to gatherer classes; the difference is crafters with gatherers still have to spend a decent amount of TIME gathering the mats needed for each synthesis they want to make; while omni crafter merely spend an extra 30sec to 2min crafting an additional step. The time spent on maxing the classes on crafters (currently) rewards exponentially as compared to the reward for maxing all you gatherers.

let me give a tangible example of the difference.

Let's consider what it takes to make an ilv 190 crafting necklace: Ironworks Necklace of Crafting.

Now I have all the gathering classes so I can save the gil and farm all the mats. HOWEVER my only saving is GIL not at all time! I actually have to invest a HUGE amount of time for the gil I plan on saving. Let's start with luminous fibers. the glass for luminous can be retrieved 1 per day? by moogle quest or you can farm ilv180 gear to desyn; however both methods are extremely time consuming (i.e. gil saved= significant time spent). Moving onto the light-kiss sand needed we have another gil saved=significant time spent (unless you're lucky). Also now consider the timed unspoiled nodes (wattle bark, meteorite,.....more gil saved equaling significant time spent.)

So far all the "benefits" of having my own gathering classes still cost me something significant to take "advantage" of my gathering classes--TIME. Now lets move into the crafting portion.

Remember I want to make an ilv 190 crafting necklace and I have all raw mats that took me significant time to gather. I need to make camphor, lum. fiber, eikon leather, and treated cam. lumber. That's a total of 4 different syn needed BEFORE I can attempt my necklace (so 5 syn. if you include the necklace itself). Let's be funny and say each step takes 3min...lulz; so when its all said and done i sent 15min crafting this one necklace.

Let's now compare. When it came to obtaining raw mats the gil I saved resulted in significant time investment in gathering the mats myself. HOwever when it came to omni crafting not only did I save gil in crafting it myself, but the cost of crafting it myself was 3min per additional step!!! BEING FUNNY I SAID IT TAKES 3min per step. But it doesn't take 3min to hq any of these steps and most decent crafters can NQ these intermediate mats in 30 sec and still get the HQ necklace; so in reality more like a total time of 5-6min everything!!!. There is no comparison that Omni crafting rewards FAAAARRRR more in time and gil saved than having gatherers & a few crafters leveled.

Hence why specialist system wanted to level the playing field, reducing each player to a trio-crafter (AND yesss this punished omni crafters!!!) However moving forward omni crafters will no longer be severely punished BUT INSTEAD will be required more TIME in order to take "advantage" of having access to all the crafting class by being required to spend an additional 15min making RED SCRIPTS to swap crafting crystals. Under this new system Omni crafters will still have the perk of self-sufficiency; it just wont be as crippling to the rest of the non-omni crafting community.

**Silverbane** · 05-07-2017 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by javid

But then Omni crafters like yourself...said I don't wanna work with anybody else I want to be self-sustaining.... Well SE came up with a GREAT solution

Not really. I have two characters who are Omnicrafters, and my wife has two as well. And we each have one more character that is L60 crafting on at least 2 crafts.

We each cover all the Specialists.
And each of our two omni-crafter characters is also an omni-gatherer.
We are each self-sustaining. And together, even more so.

Originally Posted by javid

Hence why specialist system wanted to level the playing field, reducing each player to a trio-crafter (AND yesss this punished omni crafters!!!)

We don't feel punished. We just felt like we'd been giving a reason to level two more characters each up to L60 DoW (me WHM main, she Bard) and omnicrafters

**javid** · 05-07-2017 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Silverbane

Not really. I have two characters who are Omnicrafters, and my wife has two as well. And we each have one more character that is L60 crafting on at least 2 crafts.

We each cover all the Specialists.
And each of our two omni-crafter characters is also an omni-gatherer.
We are each self-sustaining. And together, even more so.

We don't feel punished. We just felt like we'd been giving a reason to level two more characters each up to L60 DoW (me WHM main, she Bard) and omnicrafters

uuugh you do realize the steps you're taking to bypass one character having access to all spc recipes is the very mechanics of interdependence? The only draw back is your system is a bit slower since it's just you and the "boo" manning the 8 man fort.
Nevertheless functionally (even though the several characters are under your operation) you'll depend on multi characters to cover all the areas needed.

You don't feel the punishment b/c you have several characters, an omni crafter with only 1 character (under the current system) wouldn't be able to enjoy your work around.

**Silverbane** · 05-07-2017 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by javid

uuugh you do realize the steps you're taking to bypass one character having access to all spc recipes is the very mechanics of interdependence?

We're just having fun.

Originally Posted by javid

You don't feel the punishment b/c you have several characters, an omni crafter with only 1 character (under the current system) wouldn't be able to enjoy your work around.

It's their choice to only have one character. :P

**Nezerius** · 05-07-2017 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Silverbane

We don't feel punished. We just felt like we'd been giving a reason to level two more characters each up to L60 DoW (me WHM main, she Bard) and omnicrafters

Since you don't seem to feel the punishment, I'm going to assume that neither you, nor your wife has actually done any high level crafting during the 2.x patches.

It's a punishment to 2.x omnicrafters, because everything a player could do on just one character, now requires three characters. The crafting system in 2.x perfectly fit the "You can do everything on one character" thing, just like you can level every single job DoW/M job on a single character, without any requirement to actually specialize into any of the DoW/M jobs.

**Silverbane** · 05-07-2017 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Nezerius

Since you don't seem to feel the punishment, I'm going to assume that neither you, nor your wife has actually done any high level crafting during the 2.x patches.

Why would you assume that? That something was different in the past doesn't make the present "punishment."
Well, unless one is spoiled, I guess.

**Nezerius** · 05-07-2017 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Silverbane

Why would you assume that? That something was different in the past doesn't make the present "punishment."
Well, unless one is spoiled, I guess.

Because if you had, you obviously would've found it a punishment to need another two characters to be able to do the same thing that you could do on just one character, during 2.x. It's obviously a punishment to deter 2.x omnicrafters from continueing to be omnicrafters post-2.x. Especially considering how much of a pain it is to move materials between characters.
There's nothing about being "spoiled", more about a knee-jerk reaction to a crafting system that worked fine, turning it into something that took multiple bandaid fixes to get into a somewhat better state.

Forcing limitations onto omnicrafters, just to allow players with 1-3 crafting jobs leveled to be competitive, isn't the way to go, as it's more of a negative thing (ie: if you pick these three jobs you can't craft those other recipes). It'd have been better if the specialist system was introduced with a more positive effect to it. Like if a specialist were able to craft things with less materials (y'know, since they specialise in crafting specific things). It'd encourage players to pick a specialist without feeling limited.

How would you feel if in 5.0, the devs would suddenly decide that you can only pick 3 DoW/M jobs and 1 DoL job to specialise in, with content that can only be accessed on said specialised jobs. Would you still find it great that it'd "encourage" having multiple characters? If you don't see that as a punishment, then I don't know what to tell you.

**Silverbane** · 05-07-2017 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Nezerius

How would you feel if in 5.0, the devs would suddenly decide that you can only pick 3 DoW/M jobs and 1 DoL job to specialise in, with content that can only be accessed on said specialised jobs. Would you still find it great that it'd "encourage" having multiple characters? If you don't see that as a punishment, then I don't know what to tell you.

Is that how far you have to go to "make" your point? An absurd hypothetical?
It's a game. We play by their rules, and they change them for reasons that are not your reasons.
Me, I'll adapt and have fun or I'll leave.

Any "punishment" you might think you are suffering is self-inflicted.

**Caimie_Tsukino** · 05-08-2017 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Nezerius

Forcing limitations onto omnicrafters, just to allow players with 1-3 crafting jobs leveled to be competitive, isn't the way to go, as it's more of a negative thing (ie: if you pick these three jobs you can't craft those other recipes). It'd have been better if the specialist system was introduced with a more positive effect to it. Like if a specialist were able to craft things with less materials (y'know, since they specialise in crafting specific things). It'd encourage players to pick a specialist without feeling limited.

Did everybody just miss this? Finally, a constructive idea to positively empower the discussion here! Not sure if this idea will work, but I like it!

Thread: 4.0 specialization

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