A consern about space efficieny since stormblood is not getting enough space increase

[Shougun]

I mean, you already lose a "rare" dye when you dye the item a new color, and I don't see anyone getting upset over that.

SE shouldn't have to baby its players just because they don't like the consequences of a particular choice.

Both WS and GW make dye purchases permanent. Since I don't dye stuff I don't talk about it much but I find the idea of a digital consumeable like dyes rather appalling.. although both GW and WS also give you permanent slot upgrades too. (No rent)

Really makes the shop maturity feel bad - imo, like if someone told SE people would buy digital bottles of Eorzean air with no effects that last 10 minutes and cost $50 they'd do it.

[Berethos]

Both WS and GW make dye purchases permanent. Since I don't dye stuff I don't talk about it much but I find the idea of a digital consumeable like dyes rather appalling.. although both GW and WS also give you permanent slot upgrades too. (No rent)

Really makes the shop maturity feel bad imo, like if someone told SE people would buy digital bottles of Eorzean air with no effects that last 10 minutes and cost $50 they'd do it.

I'm not as familiar with WS current system (last time I played was just before it went F2P), but with GW2's approach to dye is overall a different approach.

In FFXIV the vast majority are either craftable or buyable from specific vendors, and these can all be traded. The few colors that are on the cash shop can also be obtained in-game via retainers and/or the marketboard. In fact, the cash shop dye is more like a slapped on option to the dye system, and it would be a bad idea to change the entire system for the sake of something from the outside that's been essentially duct taped on.

Compare that to GW2, where the cash shop is literally the lifeblood of the game. The primary source of dyes being brought into the game is via the cash shop, where they can then be sold on the market or used...they want to make that as attractive as possible to use.

That being said, I'd be willing to get that the dye purchases wouldn't be permanent if there weren't a host of other *bought with real money* consumable items on their store - really, you have to look at the whole picture here. Dyes aren't consumable, one-time use only things, but there are plenty of items that are.

Still waiting on a reply on this:

You're going to be waiting a long time - I've already said my piece in response to your original comment, that Neverwinter's inventory system is somehow less of a rip off compared to the one FFXIV uses. You refuse to accept that 450 permanent slots for free is better than 434 for $175 - there's no reason for me to continue trying to convince you otherwise in the face of that kind of reasoning.

[Naunet]

The primary source of dyes being brought into the game is via the cash shop

Eh? I've gotten the vast majority of my dyes in GW2 from drops, with some exceptions for the "special" collections.

IMO learnable dye colors is simply a much better and more user-friendly design. You don't have to either A) clutter inventory storing dyes or B) hunt down that color you want from some NPC/marketboard/search for the crafting mats. Instead it could be as easy as opening up the dye menu and selecting the color you want. Tack on a few hundred gil cost to compensate.

As it is, I very rarely make use of the dye system because it's simply so inconvenient. But if it was more like GW2 or WS's system, I'd be fiddling with my dyes every day. Even better if the glamour system was like WS's...

[Shougun]

I'm not as familiar with WS current system (last time I played was just before it went F2P), but with GW2's approach to dye is overall a different approach.

In FFXIV the vast majority are either craftable or buyable from specific vendors, and these can all be traded. The few colors that are on the cash shop can also be obtained in-game via retainers and/or the marketboard. In fact, the cash shop dye is more like a slapped on option to the dye system, and it would be a bad idea to change the entire system for the sake of something from the outside that's been essentially duct taped on.

Compare that to GW2, where the cash shop is literally the lifeblood of the game. The primary source of dyes being brought into the game is via the cash shop, where they can then be sold on the market or used...they want to make that as attractive as possible to use.

That being said, I'd be willing to get that the dye purchases wouldn't be permanent if there weren't a host of other *bought with real money* consumable items on their store - really, you have to look at the whole picture here. Dyes aren't consumable, one-time use only things, but there are plenty of items that are.

I understand what you're trying to say but that it even exist is part of the appalling element to me. It's like if you made a perfectly good product and then purposely made it die so your consumer had to get more, of course some companies do this.. but I don't have to give a round of applause for doing it lol.

"Thank you for buying your new chair, it will self destruct in 30 days, would you like a reminder to buy another in 25 days?". That idea feels super shadey, imo. Maybe I'm too old lol.

Also I don't think GW2 had the dye issue like you suggested at least when I played, but I haven't played it as much as I have WoW or FFXIV so I'm not the best to ask on that. The parallel dyes is better than nothing though so I will give SE props for at least making it parallel. I'd talk to Naunet for that.

WS has a nice system so you can get the cash shop currency in game (GW2 has a small element of this but not like WS). Having to keep re-purchasing dyes overall is just an annoying system, so I should probably have given you why I dislike it on many levels to help the conversation - my bad lol. Like I believe the in game dye shouldn't be consumable either because it's just annoying. There should be a gil sink somewhere sure, but like the three I love to mention (WoW, GW2, WS) their gilsink is at the convenient button press (when the game was more hardcore (1.0) I might have argued consumable was better, but we're theme-park now and that isn't bad but it changes my expectations).

Which would be another reason why I brought it up. One time purchase on a free game gaining you permanent space/use vs a monthly game where you have to then rent more services "yaay" lol. Although I understand the cash shop for FFXIV is not going anywhere, at least I would like them to account bound all things and turn those consumables into permanents (well the whole dye system preferably, because I liked the two versions I tried in GW/WS better).

Eh? I've gotten the vast majority of my dyes in GW2 from drops, with some exceptions for the "special" collections.

IMO learnable dye colors is simply a much better and more user-friendly design. You don't have to either A) clutter inventory storing dyes or B) hunt down that color you want from some NPC/marketboard/search for the crafting mats. Instead it could be as easy as opening up the dye menu and selecting the color you want. Tack on a few hundred gil cost to compensate.

As it is, I very rarely make use of the dye system because it's simply so inconvenient. But if it was more like GW2 or WS's system, I'd be fiddling with my dyes every day. Even better if the glamour system was like WS's...

Thank you

[Ama_Hamada]

I'm not as familiar with WS current system (last time I played was just before it went F2P), but with GW2's approach to dye is overall a different approach.

In FFXIV the vast majority are either craftable or buyable from specific vendors, and these can all be traded. The few colors that are on the cash shop can also be obtained in-gamevia retainers and/or the marketboard. In fact, the cash shop dye is more like a slapped on option to the dye system, and it would be a bad idea to change the entire system for the sake of something from the outside that's been essentially duct taped on.

Compare that to GW2, where the cash shop is literally the lifeblood of the game. The primary source of dyes being brought into the game is via the cash shop, where they can then be sold on the market or used...they want to make that as attractive as possible to use.

That being said, I'd be willing to get that the dye purchases wouldn't be permanent if there weren't a host of other *bought with real money* consumable items on their store - really, you have to look at the whole picture here. Dyes aren't consumable, one-time use only things, but there are plenty of items that are.



You're going to be waiting a long time - I've already said my piece in response to your original comment, that Neverwinter's inventory system is somehow less of a rip off compared to the one FFXIV uses. You refuse to accept that 450 permanent slots for free is better than 434 for $175 - there's no reason for me to continue trying to convince you otherwise in the face of that kind of reasoning.

So you still do not understand my point, read the post again esp this part: (feel free to ctrl F):

huh 175? you said 80 something +6 or something i doono even if that is the case still less then a year sub here +6 retainers for a year. (somewhere around 264 for non-legacy)

That is the rip off, 175 that lasts for ever is much better then a year sub. We do not have enough space to be functional in this game. You are clearly ignoring was supposed to shed some light to get you to understand:

If a game gives you a million items, but 1000 spots to put them in, has less room then a game that gives you 1000 items total with 200 spots to put them in.

in other words 200 spots of inventory is better then 1000 spots because of the situations they are in, just like FFXIV and Neverwinter.

Also have you tried to obtain dyes latey though retainer? There is a reason they shot up gil wise, last few patches, they became a lot more rarer, so increasing the mog shop exploitation.

Just ignore Berethos. It's clear that he is running out of facts to counter our stand. He has been ignoring the points that we had been raising a couple of times and just sticking to the raw inventory count in FFXIV.

Yes I know but I want to point this out in case others reading do not get that.

[Mholito]

I want every single one of those that feel like they don't have enough inventory space to look through their items and ask themselves if they really need to be holding on to them.
Crafting materials that you won't be needing anytime soon, and can easily get more of if you were to need them; Throw them away.
Primal totems that you've been holding on to for ages, and will likely never use for anything; Throw them away.
Glamour items that you used at one point, but not anymore; Throw them away.
Just stop being stupid with your inventory management, and you'll be surprised at how much space you have.

TL;DR Throw away anything that is easily replaceable, or that you are not gonna use in the forseeable future.

[Naunet]

I'm not going to throw away armor that, if I do decide I want to use it in a glamour, I may have to spend weeks and weeks farming again with the hope that it drops and I win the roll.

[Shurrikhan]

Actually confused by this, I thought you where simply saying you can have 3 different look sets saved per job. From what I understand it sounds complicated, can you word this into something more simple? The more complex it is, the less likely a dev will do the system.

Each job can attach three images to any of its gear slots. Let's say you have a chest piece, a generic omniclass lvl 1 chest, that you want to add to glamour. You use the appropriate leatherworker or weaver prism to add it to every class/job's image bank for the chest slot, if there's space (3 max). If there isn't space, you'll be asked which, if any, current glamour images attached to each maxed-out class/job's chest slot you want to replace.

To create the glamour set, you simply then click "new set", and select an image (unmodified, first image, second image, third image, or 'ignore slot') from each slot and then hit 'finish'. You can reconfigure these sets at any time from the images attached to your job's slots. Even after swapping between "sets", you can still instantly and freely swap in the helm from Set 2, just control-clicking it (or via left-trigger-or-whatever + select key) and then clicking on the image you want.
__________________

That's just my preference, as I prefer the freedom to swap between a few sets or images per slot freely over the ability to swap between a potentially infinite number of sets (via a glamour book) at cost of consumable items. That's not to say I'd be opposed to a glamour book, of course; though, at that point, any additional glamour needs could probably be filled simply through house mannequins and by reducing the limitations on what gear can be stored in the armoire.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm comparing them because you said, and I quote "better than what we got."

If you can't see that you get less permanent slots than you get in FFXIV (when only counting permanent slots) for a whopping $175?

That's all on you.

XIV does give a ridiculously high amount of inventory slots. But it also requires a ridiculously high amount of slots.

Personally, I'd rather need fewer items in the first place, so that I'm not having to access retainers (however free those 150 slots each on the first 2 may be), etc., or at least that the game functions that most require huge additional amounts of space have that space allotted just to them (I realize that may shout out more negatives and positives to others; that's just my preference, even as someone who rarely crafts or gathers).

Now, any such changes may bring about a vastly different feel to the game, such as through the addition of a glamour log, additional means of gear trade-ins, increased overlap in gear usability, changes to gear longevity or dependency, changes to how dyes work (e.g. requiring just a standard item, as with repairs, and being available only to crafters or as an action purchased directly from dyers (previously dye vendors)), changes to how adding glamours works, the addition of class-specific additional space for gatherers and crafters, etc., etc., but honestly, a lot of those seem worthwhile QoL improvements in and of themselves. Their overall effect in combination would just be a very satisfying bonus.

[OcieKo]

First things first, going to try and clear up some points people have been going back and forth over, but the main idea isnt getting across.
Edit Note: Also sorry about the wall, will try to make more pragraph breaks in section 3 later.
EditNote 2: Just realized i did 12x25 = 450 and not the correct 300, which make the x8 2400 not 3600... Also on the fix list now... Sorry again.

1. F2P Permanent Storage Purchases vs. P2P Rental Storage Subscriptions
On the F2P is cheaper the person holding this claim is accounting for total funding required to play with said inventory space for the duration of play, which holds that the large SINGLE purchase of inv space is cheaper over the duration. In the current arguement of note $80 of space in NWN still costs in total $80 6 months later. While in the rental case, 6 retainers at $12/mo cost $72 on their own not including the $13-15/mo of the games base sub for another $78-90 making for a total cost of that amount of usable space $150-162/6mos. So even if you do not factor in the base sub as a variable the cost looks like this NWN Inv Cost = SX1 and FFXIV inv Cost = SXM where S = Slots, X = Puchases of Said Slots and M = Frequency of purchase, in this case per month subbed. So once one person get 6 sets of extra slots after FXIVs cheaper per slot rental is reccurred enough time it gradually surpasses the permanent model even if they give less. So your cost per month or year would divde the total equations by said increasing value, in other words for every minth or year you keep permanent storage its overall cost lowers as opposed to renting space. Applied to this example... In 2 years NWNs $80 in storage costs around $1.5/mo for a total of $80, whereas FFXIVs costs $12/mo for a total of $288 which is amour 3.5 NWNs cost for the same period of time.

2. Character Level: Base Usable Inventory Space in MMOs like WoW vs. Base Inentory Space in FFXIV
Base inventory space in games like WoW is generally significantly smaller than in FFXIV, true. And in game feasible expansion methods are more readily available, also true. Now biggest difference behins here, the amount of gear and items a single character can be expected to have use of, while FFXIVs base inventory may be nearly double that of WoW types, its single character usability for equippable gear alone is about 3 WoW : 15 FFXIV per slot (not exact probable low on the FF Side), roughly 5 times or more the equibbale inventory requirement for JUST left side, on the right + belts its about 3:5 on average, in OH weps its about 4:9 getting bad, for MH weps its near about a 4:30 ratio almost 8 times more space for just the current equippable. This is part of the newer all on on char style of mmo character development. Now when you include crafting materials this way its becomes exponentially worse, where as for a single gathering profession between the 2 the space reqs pretty much cancel each other out, same with crafting, issue strikes at the point of WOW types having a sub max limitation whereas FFXIVs limit is the max, last time i played wow professions capped at 5 and 3 werent exclusive, every char can have Fishing, Cooking, and First Aid. First Aid being as it was can basically be nixed on inventory space since it used commonly dropped mats, everyone pretty much uses it, and theres no reason to hoarde old cloth/bandages short if mass selling them. So Fishings and Cooking/Culinarion basically cancel each other out. So that leaves 2 remaining WOW crafter/gatherer needs to compete with FFXIVs 9, thus where the next space issue hits. Potential use for 4.5 times the amount of different mats. Not that im double checking my math that closely but id say base inv practical usage for one character can easily be 4-5 times that of WoW types in FFXIV. That's not to say people arent hoarding a rediculous amount of crap they dont need in either, they are. I do an inventory cleanup purge about every time i lvl a new job up, im pretty sure ive made a good 100-200 slots getting rid of pre-acquired accs that i got for when i lvl an appropriate job up. But still mathematically FFXIVs space needs is rediculously high based on how its class system works.

3. Account Server Level: Base Usable Inventory Space in MMOs like WoW vs. Base Inentory Space in FFXIV
Keep in min some games like FFXIV have a strict 1 character per account server and have it worse, ill be basing this segmentbon a standard sub of 8 chars per account server. To clarify, im saying account server to inicate allot for one server on an account, FFXIV and WOW both use the inustry standard of 8 chars per server, 40 for the entire account, Which makes a single account server unit 8 Charcters.
WOW specifically increases the max size of interchangable bag storage every expansion sometimes more than once per expansion. FFXIV so far has not, aside from the job crystal/crafter specialty tomestone in its armory page to meet the max possible since there is a limit there its both feasable and practical, and SB will add 2 more to it for RDM/SAM given its function, it can basically be removed from consideration. In FFXIV a characters base free item intory is 450 after the base retainers are unlocked and 12x25 didicated slots, giving a roughly 750 base inventory limit along with 13 on your character itself which will be considered to be canceled out given that any mmo with equippable gear will be in the same ballpark. The armory's right side + waist slots is considerably a huge amount of space in its own right. Left side - wep/waist fluctuates based on how job/class specific gear sets get at around 3.1 it was pretty small given that the roughly best gear for every job/class was 1:1 at that point which made the 13 jobs, 8 crafts, and 3 gatherers eat up all but 1 available slot. This roughly matches up to space given without any additional storage in WOW types, roughly enough for the core essentials without extra loot, simply seems like a lot but really isnt when comparing base needs difference. Weapons are literally 1 short of max capacity atm, and that slot can very often be needed, as in the case with relic quests and having to need an open slot to switch out weapons. Ok for a baseline to use for WOWs side 1 reqd 25 slot bag + 4 in game upgradeable slots of up to probaly around 50 per slot amounting to about 225 on char per char in WOW all free slots, vs. FFXIVs 100 free + 450 specialty slots, even when accomodating for FFXIVs space reqs, FFXIV is still nearly 2.5X. At this part given the different needs FFXIV is slightly ahead. Retainers in FFXIV amount to 350 free slots, 40 market slots 390 total if you just use the market slots for storage by overpriced holdings. I believe WOW has an auction house listing limit so well drop 1 set of market slots to balance that out, so roughly 370 for FFXIVs argument (tho realistically FFXIVs unlimited listing duration has vadt superiorities to WoWs limited as a means of storage). IIRC please correct me if im wrong, WoWs base bank is 100 slots + 8 bag slots, which with previous math would amount to 500 slots or so, given space reqs its vastly larger but also 150 item count larger. So to show them side by side FFXIV 100 char bag + 450 armory + 370 Retainer = 920 Slots to WoWs 225 Character + 500 Bank = 775 Slots, expanded over 8 chars we have 7360 FFXIV Slots VS. WoWs 6200. Ok seems pretty even still and about 1160 slots given FFXIVs items needs doesnt seem like much. Tip of the iceberg here. If we estimate roughly 15 items per endgame job with rough 3 in WOW (assuming unique gear sets for multiple specs) and 24 sets in FFXIV held in its 450 per char armory. We are now in WoWs total gear occupancy being about 45 per char or around 360 slots total, leaving WOW with about 5840 free slots in just the max per character inventory. FFXIV can be said to have around 360 per character (yes i found it amusing after i did the math in my head that it was the same as my wow per server account calc) for a total of 2880 leaving 4480 slots total left, but not 100% free. Notice at this point WoWs in is now 1360 larger. Now if we compare just the w/e item space 450x8=3600 of its 7360 total is partially limited space which all of its baseline gear reqs come out of, leaving us with 720 partially limited space and 3760 free spaces. So for things like crafting mats and non-equippables our effect iventory demerit to WoW is now 2080. Ouch.
Now for where the actual issue begins, the ability to move items between characters of ones own account. Between the 2 games all options available are Mail, Shared Bank, Guild Bank, Trade to a Friend and Back to Other Char, Sell on 1st Char Buy on 2nd in Market. Trade, and Market Sell/Buy cancel out (also they are risky methods of transferring goods). Mail and Shared Bank are exclusive to WoW, and Guild Bank is in both with similar demerits in both (one sec on why i didnt cancel it like trade/market). Shared Bank just doesnt exist in FFXIV, and probably should top the list as the best NEW feature that can be added to alleviate the problem. While FFXIV does have mailing between player characters it is limited by the friend request system, which in the case of mailed gold spam curbs the issue completely, but the system requires both characters be on simultaneoysly to initiate the request, thus one account cannot friend its own chars (this also makes it impossible to share a private house with oneself, but not an issue for here). Now the Guild Bank/FC Chest roughly cancel out if used as intended or if used in a private Guild/FC setting which eliminates the risks associated with the trade/market options, which to a certain extent the intended method retains a middle ground between those risks based on permissions/currently active players etc. Private FC is the only way for an FFXIV player to securely move things between their own characters on one service account. And the demerits to effectively removing the option of having an FC should be obvious.

(Pretty sure WoW had a shared bank at least, know EQ1/EQ2 did, but at least the mail part is true)

Ill make a different post later to propose my thoughts on solutions later. Feel free to double check my work and ill try to edit in corrections later. 5% battery left on my iPad and typing on this thing sucks so... Hope this makes some of the arguements a bit more clear for both sides. My opinion later tonight or tomorrow.