Dam. meter

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

So did I but it wasn't as optimal. MCH have it easier than others though since our WF shows us a number at the end. It's not the rotation that's the biggest issue though. A stationary target is easy but in a raid knowing how I perform under stress is very useful.

Time, practice and repetition will accomplish the skill and consistency even without a parser. Don't get me wrong, it IS nice to know the numbers, but technical expertise produces high numbers, not the other way around.

It's also worth noting that - abusive or negative players aside - in a situation where everyone is performing well, even well enough to clear consistently, a parser can lead to debates or bragging over who's doing better than someone else, and if your team is capable of accomplishing what it wants to, does that really matter? No, but let's not act like we don't know human nature. . .

[Kaethra]

From the minute they hit WOW and became the norm guilds started booting players left and right.

Again more hearsay. "The moment they hit WoW."

I was using a Parser in 2001 in EQ, years before WoW was released. You all again are spreading misinformation that it causes communities to go bad.

[Arrius]

This behavior will cause the exclusion of players, dividing community in tiers. Instead of being a game for everyone as is intended.

Isn't that what already happens with those lazy/entitled players? We let them pass because they are too much of a hazzle dealing with them if you start to argue with them in a dungeon, and thus encourage their behavior to continue despite them being wrong.

I've seen tanks, dps and healers grind their teeth and be quiet about the issue with others because they didn't want to risk the emotional strain coming from this.

But all of the sudden everyone shuns the use of a addon that the usage and interpretation is completely up the player? Some community, that is.

@Arrius

I still disagree with you then. I think you feel it as a much bigger problem then I do.
I think leveling every class to 60 is an option that people have. Some people have more time in their hands to do that then others, you can't use this in an argument and think it justifies you being grumpy about having people that don't put effort every now and then. And believe me, I know it doesn't happen as often as you say it does. You get upset more easily than other people do about it.

Regardless of this, they are most likely to not add this feature because the community doesn't agree at all. We have a very split opinion on this as you can see by this thread thus it will harm either way. Might as well not have it.

Hey, I agree to disagree. I still will throw people out of groups if they don't do good enough, with a meter or not.

[Llan]

Again more hearsay. "The moment they hit WoW."

I was using a Parser in 2001 in EQ, years before WoW was released. You all again are spreading misinformation that it causes communities to go bad.

I reckon you're not going to blatantly deny the huge portion of people in WoW that harass over DPS numbers, right?
I'd say it might be hearsay up to some point but this is a problem that happened because of Parsers in WoW and it's kinda obvious...

Give an already mostly toxic community a tool to measure people based on DPS and they'll use it for evil, period.

Hey, I agree to disagree. I still will throw people out of groups if they don't do good enough, with a meter or not.

And that's absolutely fine. I mean just look at my signature. I have to deal with people like that all the time (Not insanely often but still, I know the pain). lol

[Shougun]

Give an already mostly toxic community a tool to measure people based on DPS and they'll use it for evil, period.

I think we're already at an respectable disagreement/agreement on things but out of curiosity, on the basis of this sentence do you think it is the parser's fault then? If it's not do you believe there is any conceivable variation of the outcome where, if you agree with me (people not tools are the problem), a parser could be introduced with nominal "new" negative impact? What would that world look like? If you can imagine one lol.

Like blaming the food people buy for changing them when they knew before they bought it that it was bad for them.

"I CANT BELIEVE THEY SELL THIS 2,000 CALORIES BURGER *nom nom nom* THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS *buys another* I WILL SUE THEM FOR THIS CLEAR VIOLATION OF MY RIGHTS TO BE HEALTHY *drinks 500L Soda that has a warning label on it*"

Of course I understand a key argument point some people have /against/ parser is that its not just a harm of self like my joke example above but more like smoking or something where doing it around others hurts others too lol. Hamburger example sounded better though, I'm hungry :3, and I don't agree with all the negatives listed with parsing but yeah wanted to be clear so the joke point is understood (self responsibility/lack of it is the problem and not the tool).

So I guess it follows, so long as people agree that it is the person and not the inanimate object that causes harm, that we address if the FFXIV community is toxic or not.. If its not, truthfully not, then parser should cause no nominal difference (in toxicity). If it does, it would be more like the tool pulled back the drapes of what was already there (and if its still a small section thats fairly easy for GMs to manage and should be for people to ignore, large sections obviously a larger issue).

Personally found neither WoW (again haven't played most recently so maybe it changed) nor FFXIV that toxic and the worse experience I've had in gaming was with FPS games and LoL (not MOBAs in general since HotS seems really mellow actually, like one insult every 12 games.. not bad lol). I would consider FPS anecdotal for sure, but.. uh.. LoL experience was so visceral and violent I can't believe it was just my experience lol. Watching people threaten others families, assaults of all nature, death threats, pure rage over any and all things XD (also haven't played LoL in a few years, so it could have improved).

Part of that experience might be that I feel I start at a decent place in most games and people who are quite new do actually get picked on where I normally wouldn't be (leading to a very limited negative experience with parsers, since in WoW I strived to be at the top of that list just because it was a fun challenge - or at least in new content never ever be at the bottom lol). But I do care about that new experience, part of why some of the people here including myself have also added a lot to other threads on helping newer people grasp the mechanics more consistently/easily and pick up what some people find intuitive due to their strong relationship with games (obviously people have far different suggestions on how to do that, but I recognize a few names here lol).

[Kyuuen]

-snip-

Yeah, but the difference between those two businesses is one will charge you more for a product. That fast food chain that sells the 2000 cal burger is probably going to be charging you more for it vs whatever their standard burger is (if they have one =P ). Whereas FF XIV isn't changing the price for what they're pushing.... unless they sell the parser on mogstation. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° )

Anyway that's neither here nor there.

The way I think they see it is that they can add it and one; if not a few, thing/s will happen. People eventually rise to the occasion and begin to change, which isn't likely. If that were the case, then WoW's player base would be largely knowledgeable regarding their class/specs.. and sadly that's not the case. Or the inverse of that, it's added and it becomes a weapon to bash people with which; sadly, IS the case in WoW. While parsers; in the right hands, can be a tool for good in show casing your jobs ins and outs as far as ability potential. It is far more often utilized as a tool to demean, which will only push more people away from content, which is exactly what XIV DOES NOT need.

[Kaethra]

Give an already mostly toxic community a tool to measure people based on DPS and they'll use it for evil, period.

Why stop at a parser? Why not disable chat too? Then disable names. Everyone is anonymous to one another?

I don't need restrictions to protect me from 'naughty' players. I can and have dealt with them myself. This community just needs to grow some gall and do the same. Stop being so damned sensitive and shy about everything.

[Llan]

Why stop at a parser? Why not disable chat too? Then disable names. Everyone is anonymous to one another?

I don't need restrictions to protect me from 'naughty' players. I can and have dealt with them myself. This community just needs to grow some gall and do the same. Stop being so damned sensitive and shy about everything.

Generalizing what I said doesn't make you right. lol
You can project all you want though. What I mean is: we already have asshats around, why give them a "low hanging fruit" as said before?

It's unnecessary. I think if we already have 3rd Party programs that people can use we don't need to force a system in-game.
it's like asking blizzard to add all add-ons as features in the game. If the add-ons are already working, why would you go out of your way to add something. You can use a parser already, go ahead and use it.

We had already made this point earlier in this very thread btw, a point made by multiple people in fact.

[Arrius]

As far as I was seeing it, SE customer support was and is still quite efficient and swift when it comes to getting down on people which were bullying/harassing others about their DPS when meters were mentioned.

That said, what would change if SE adds their own official meter to the game, when the actions and procedures of said customer support about meter bullying/harassment will remain the same as now?

[Llan]

As far as I was seeing it, SE customer support was and is still quite efficient and swift when it comes to getting down on people which were bullying/harassing others about their DPS when meters were mentioned.

That said, what would change if SE adds their own official meter to the game, when the actions and procedures of said customer support about meter bullying/harassment will remain the same as now?

While it's a third party parser, not everyone will know/use it, so the number of complaints over DPS numbers are low. As soon as you bring this into the game and everyone starts to use it the number will increase exponentially thus making such great customer support not so great anymore.

We already have a third party parser that people use if they want to and it's fine. As I said before, if people want to use it during their static or PF runs, go right ahead. Just don't drag the entire game into the DPS meter black hole of douchebagness.

@Orbiaus

You can practice rotations without a parser and when you're able to optimize your rotation usually you'll see that you're not chocking with cool downs. It's a matter of experimenting and it's a very fun part of the game. People may use parsers to minmax numbers but figuring out a good rotation will already let you clear content so why worry about it.