Coils of Bahamut... and its inconsistent challenge level.

[Dualgunner]

This tread scares and confuses me....

Me too Jimmy. Me too.

[HyoMinPark]

Til then - I cant thank you (and the others) enough for being actual reasonable people. If I were a little more into roleplay I'd go the whole "hydaelyns light shines bright from your minds" or something like that, but I'm sure I'll only discredited myself by saying that.

So, well said - thank you very much for that!

Awh, you're welcome. :3 <3

I know I'm probably in the minority, but I enjoy a lot of the older content. My favorite 24-man is World of Darkness--the music, the scenery, I love every aspect of it. I like the entire CT series as a whole, and even if I don't need to run them, I frequently join my friends if they are doing the Archmagus quest, or doing them for WT. Sometimes I'll just queue for them solo if I feel like running them. I'm always down for some Tower.

Same thing goes for Coil. I don't think there's a Turn I dislike (we don't count T3 here), although I don't remember much of T6 and T7, but that's because I haven't been in those turns as frequently as some of the others. And T13 is my favorite fight in the game (actually tied with Sophia because that music though). If any of my friends say they're gonna run T13 for whatever reason, I immediately say "Invite me. Invite me now, please." Even unsynced at 60 I love it. I have tanked it, healed it, and DPS'd it. My favorite is just eating Ahk Morns with the tank on my BRD. I can usually live if the healer heals me, and then I pop Second Wind in time (really helps if it crits, too). But if I die, I'm just like "I don't even care; that was amazing." A friend and I are working on two-manning it with WAR/SCH (maybe WAR/Noct AST) when we aren't tied up with other things. Just for funnsies.

I farm Coil often. I farmed it for aetherstones. I tried farming T9 for the actual High Allagan tank coat, but it never dropped, and the groups I find are very hit or miss with T9, so I prefer to go with friends who I know won't be dumb with the meteors or golems. I farmed the heck out of T5 and T13 when I learned about the Answers orchestrion roll. I was like "I don't care if this is the only orchestrion roll I ever get; I need this in my life."

These reasons are why I'm so baffled by the OP. Aside from his lack of grammar and proper sentence structure. I don't understand what he thinks nerfing or retuning Coil is going to do. A retune or super-nerf doesn't guarantee that people will queue for it via DF. A lot of new players don't even know about Coil; I know I didn't when I first started playing. Then I met my old FC mates, and would hear them talk about "Coil" and "Turn X" and I finally asked what that was. If anything, I don't think much would change between how Coil DF queues are now, and how they would be if it was reworked.

I don't know why he keeps insisting that they're irrelevant when clearly they are not. If, for the very least, the story behind it. I stopped paying attention to Alexander's story because it just paled in comparison to Coil, tbh. Plus, SAM and RDM are going to be level 50, so that Dreadwyrm gear is going to be pretty handy for leveling at least to 55/56.

I also can't understand them half of the time because they say one thing, and then two posts later contradict themselves. Plus, they keep using the word "uber" and I'm just like "Stop. That stopped being cool back when I was in middle school." Which was quite a while ago! They talk as if they've been playing the game for years, but they're still a relatively new character. I know I talk about how Coil used to be, but that's only because I've heard stories from my friends that would raid it back in ARR. I wish I could have experienced it.

I'm also just tired of people demanding that anything that requires even a fraction of a millimeter of effort from them be nerfed. Like I'm still boggled by the "Please nerf PotD Floor 50 boss fight" thread. I don't want to raid in 4.0 for the shinies. I want to raid for the challenge; for pushing myself and my job I choose to raid with to it's highest potential. The shinies are just extras.


My post has drawled on long enough. It may or may not be organized/make sense because I'm really, really tired right now. XD But, until tomorrow, my friends. o7

[Khalithar]

I wanted to clear the coil story because it changed your dialogue with alisaie in 3.4 or 3.5 I don't remember which. Made a of for twintania unsynched and downed her on the first try, fought Darnus and that caused three wipes. Twice to get the meteors and golem placement right and the third wipe was cause we messed up the fire and ice phase. Dropped him easily. Then the final turn against Bahamut was two tries. It's much easier unsynched since you can skip phases but the instant kill stuff is still deadly.

[Neophyte]

Just to explain what happened in T11 in OPs case:

If all three nodes merge they get huge defense and hp regen while doing AoEs (3k damage maybe) non-stop.

You can't kill this uber node and it can't kill you (if you get healed).

But that's only how it looks. Eventually you will die to enrage or healers being oom. So OP wasn't really stuck, he was just dying a very, very slow death.

This is NO bug.


_____________________


Also I wanna repeat that OP is not getting why unsynch was even implemented.

The whole purpose of 'undersized group' option is precisly that SE has not to adjust any old content.
The issue of old content is accesibility (i.e. meet requirements like a full group at certain ilvl and skill level and specific roles) and with unsynch and cross server pf this issue was solved.
Every ARR fight can be cleared in a few minutes and you always find people for that without any problems.

[Vidu]

These reasons are why I'm so baffled by the OP. Aside from his lack of grammar and proper sentence structure. I don't understand what he thinks nerfing or retuning Coil is going to do. A retune or super-nerf doesn't guarantee that people will queue for it via DF. A lot of new players don't even know about Coil; I know I didn't when I first started playing. Then I met my old FC mates, and would hear them talk about "Coil" and "Turn X" and I finally asked what that was. If anything, I don't think much would change between how Coil DF queues are now, and how they would be if it was reworked.

Even though the rest of your post was a really refreshing read already, I wanted to add something to this because it shows something that OP doesnt seem to be aware of: Coil is, in a sense, "Hidden content" - you have to clear optional content to unlock it. Back then Titan HM was HARD, like really, really failing-to-clear hard. I have a linkshell for "casual raiding" - we created that linkshell back then to have a pool of people who are able to clear Titan HM (and are willing to help out). Today the increased ilvl makes Titan HM a lot, lot easier (even though people still fail to do mechanics, like landslides), but back then it was a real gate and people you could therotically do Coil with was extremly limited. As much as I like this content - I wouldnt want to go back to those days when you had to have a bard do to this content. When they put Final Coil into the DF I queued for T13 just to see if it would work - we didnt got a bard and two whms, so no scholar-shields. Even though we tried it at least it quickly became very clear that people struggled with mechanics and that we needed the shields from scholar. At this point one can ask now "Isnt it bad design when you cant clear a fight because of your party compostion?" - and my answer is: "Maybe - but think about it for a second: it makes for a lot more intresting fights if the devs dont have to design around the assumption that they have to be cleared in just any composition easly." - I do believe that dou-whm in T13 would be possible, even sychend, but more difficult - same goes for dou scholar. The fight was designed with jobs for both of them in mind in a sense because the devs can assume that statics will work together and solve problems like this.
Today, when you go unysch it doesnt matter if you have both healer-types. Heck, one healer is even enough - thats how unsych made this content easier.

Now, except for the T13-episode (thats just supposed to show that DF was never the way for it), why am I talking about this? Because even back in the day, when it was current content, people didnt know about it.
I used the term before, but Coil is - just as Alexander Savage - "special intrest" content for the raiding community. Its locked and hidden behind optional quests in an old location. Unlike the 24man-raids and now Alexander NM it was never supposed to be for everyone but for a very limited group of people who wanted content like that. It doesnt compare at all to 24-man raids and the NM of Alexander because those are specifically for people who'd like to do content thats a bit harder than your normal dungeon.
Coil isnt mandatory, heck, the game doesnt even care wether you do this content or not - it never did. It is there if you want to do it, but if you dont want to, thats absolutly fine too. As weird as it sounds: People not queueing in DF is "working as intended".

If someone has no intrest in a challenge, I can only urge them to stay away from challenges - and specially coil. The devs have learned their lessong about putting story behind the hard raidcontent (and killed my intrest in raiding by doing so - I still like some of the fights, the challenge and specially doing this with my friends ofc - but my "reward" is gone) and most likely wont do it again. Instead of wasting old ressources on old content for no good reason, except to let people even avoid the minimum on effort, there are a lot of better things they can do.

Coil is fine as is.
Its not supposed to be queued in in DF.
Its supposed to have mechanics that you can not fail.
It is supposed to be difficult - if you dont like that: Do anything else in the game, but leave this content alone. Because when I wanted to do content thats difficult, my options are already limited.

Just to explain what happened in T11 in OPs case:

If all three nodes merge they get huge defense and hp regen while doing AoEs (3k damage maybe) non-stop.

You can't kill this uber node and it can't kill you (if you get healed).

But that's only how it looks. Eventually you will die to enrage or healers being oom. So OP wasn't really stuck, he was just dying a very, very slow death.

This is NO bug.

While I would guess that thats most likely what happend aswell (even though he said it was two nodes that merged), I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt - and reckon a bug possible. Unlikely, but possible - thats why I asked for specific details and specially if it was possible to reproduce the bug or if the same happend after the mechanics were done correctly. Given the lack of knowledge of the fight that OP seems to have, its very likely though that he confused a properly working mechanic with a bug because he didnt know how to handle it.
But in the end we would need more information to decide wether it was a bug or a player error...
Again - I did T11 without encountering anything that shouldnt have happend (except ninjas running into baro-field ;_ three weeks ago or so. No bugs for me there, anything that happpend was supposed to happen. So I can ensure everyone: T11 is not broken.

[Dualgunner]

I wasn't able to start paying for this game until I finally found employment around the time of 2.2, so I never got to experience Binding Coil in its glory days like others did. But I nevertheless loved the designs of the fights and have fond memories of catching up in time for Final Coil of Bahamut ^u^

[ErryK]

Just to explain what happened in T11 in OPs case:

If all three nodes merge they get huge defense and hp regen while doing AoEs (3k damage maybe) non-stop.

You can't kill this uber node and it can't kill you (if you get healed).

But that's only how it looks. Eventually you will die to enrage or healers being oom. So OP wasn't really stuck, he was just dying a very, very slow death.

This is NO bug.

Even then, you can still kill it if you have the DPS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfoMxxzwPcs

Although it takes a looong time, but we're talking about OP here so... unlikely.

[bswpayton]

Even though the rest of your post

It may be hidden but it doesn't matter again once the Community not the devs decides something is dead it is dead. And yes it should be challenging but only doing it sync if the community doesnt want to do it sync then why should people suffer through something where they simply just want to view the story. Again so are you going to tell that full time crafter that stays out of your bird farms , that look even this unsync content over here , even tho I barely do it ever it still should be hard and you should still feel the pain of what hard powerful mechanics are.

SE did the best thing possible with alex by not tying the story to the savage part of the raid, hopefully we want have these complaints in sb. But I just dont understand how all of the people in here can say leave the challenge in content that they barely even do. And def aren't tryin to help someone do it sync, stop being nostalgic about stuff coil as it stand now is nothing else than an extra story line that anybody and everybody should have the right to see.

You guys cant have it all on one hand oh dont you dare put my hw trails in pf I dont wana be placed with noobs, and then in the same breathe be like oh dont make content easier for those same people to finally get their chance to do it. To me if the community sets a standard by deeming something dead and pointless then they shouldnt have any say in what else happens to that said content. You cant keep the strangle hold on content forever let other people have what much enjoyment they can find out of doing this stuff.

[HyoMinPark]

It may be hidden but it doesn't matter again once the Community not the devs decides something is dead it is dead.

I would hardly call Coil dead. People still run it for many different reasons. I'm not going to repeat them all, as they've been mentioned throughout this thread multiple times.

And yes it should be challenging but only doing it sync if the community doesnt want to do it sync then why should people suffer through something where they simply just want to view the story.

Let me repeat again: unsynced content =/= automatic faceroll. And if people are only interested in Coil's story, and not the actual content itself, that's why there are cutscenes on YouTube. I'm all for helping people clear Coil (synced or unsynced), but if they aren't going to put any effort into it (yes, I expect effort even running it unsynced), then I won't help them.

Again so are you going to tell that full time crafter that stays out of your bird farms , that look even this unsync content over here , even tho I barely do it ever it still should be hard and you should still feel the pain of what hard powerful mechanics are.

That's hardly what Vidu is saying, and if a person plays this game just for the sole aspect of crafting, it's unlikely that they would be interested in content like Coil or Alexander or Ex primals. People that enjoy just crafting or just gathering seem to only do enough content to progress them through the expansion. They want to craft/gather; not raid.

SE did the best thing possible with alex by not tying the story to the savage part of the raid, hopefully we want have these complaints in sb.

I disagree. Only because the Alexander story was so bland and boring, I didn't bother watching any of the cutscenes after Gordias. It just didn't appeal to me the same way Coil did. But since people seemed to be so unwilling to learn how to put forth the effort into clearing Coil (even unsynced), the developers learned not to tie stories to Savage mode content. It is still worth noting, though, that Coil did not have "Coil Story Mode" and "Coil Savage Mode" (with the exception of Second Coil) like Alexander. I don't really consider this a fair comparison, but that's my opinion.

But I just dont understand how all of the people in here can say leave the challenge in content that they barely even do. And def aren't tryin to help someone do it sync, stop being nostalgic about stuff coil as it stand now is nothing else than an extra story line that anybody and everybody should have the right to see.

I'd hardly say the people in this thread "barely" do Coil. Several have already mentioned they find themselves in one of the turns at least once a week, and I'm sure most of the people here run it, at the very least, for Wonderous Tails. And, I'm sorry. It does not interest me one bit to run a piece of content (old or new) and not have to pay attention to anything, or not be challenged by it. That is not a game for me.

Several have already stated that they like the fact that some Coil turns are still challenging even when running them unsynced. Which again brings me back to my point of unsynced content does not equate to automatic faceroll. Even unsynced, the content is not so hard that it's unclearable. It just requires people to, you know, actually pay attention rather than be alt-tabbed and watching Netflix.

If people just want Coil's story, and refuse to even put any effort into the content: YouTube.

You guys cant have it all on one hand oh dont you dare put my hw trails in pf I dont wana be placed with noobs, and then in the same breathe be like oh dont make content easier for those same people to finally get their chance to do it.

These are not the same things. One thing, the thread we participated in about Heavensward Ex Primals and having options similar to Raid Finder have nothing to do with this thread. At all. I don't even know why you're bringing this up, unless you're still salty that nobody wanted to agree with you.

Unsynced may make Coil easier (just from the fact that we are all overgeared and can skip mechanics or just burn through some of them), but that doesn't mean that it made it so easy that all you need to do is spam your basic combo over and over again, or just use a Regen or HoT here and there to keep people alive while you bounce around the rest of the turn. These people have their chance to run the content. But they don't have the option to be carried through it unsynced (unless they pay for it).

To me if the community sets a standard by deeming something dead and pointless then they shouldnt have any say in what else happens to that said content. You cant keep the strangle hold on content forever let other people have what much enjoyment they can find out of doing this stuff.

I don't even know how to respond to this paragraph. The first sentence alone is just so incredibly mind-boggling, I can't even form a coherent response to it other than lolwut. Just go back and read this entire thread on why people still run Coil. Maybe then it will finally sink in that Coil is not "dead."

It people just want to be able to /follow tanks or spam 1-2-3 in content, well, that's unfortunate because not everything in this game is going to be that way. If you want things to be that easy, why don't you just watch other people stream themselves playing this game. That way you get to enjoy the content, and you don't have to do anything other than use your eyeballs to stare at a screen. And I think that people that just want free rides need to just get over it already. Put forth some damn effort. Stop expecting everything to be so easy just because you're level 60 in full 270 gear. That would make fo an extremely stale game, and I'm going to be honest here: I wouldn't even bother playing it. I'm not paying a subscription every month to be utterly unimpressed or not challenged in the least.

I'm sorry if you seem to find enjoyment in not putting forth any effort, or being able to just faceroll content in your 270 gear. Some of us don't find enjoyment in content where we can just press random buttons and still clear.

[Vidu]

It may be hidden but it doesn't matter again once the Community not the devs decides something is dead it is dead. And yes it should be challenging but only doing it sync if the community doesnt want to do it sync then why should people suffer through something where they simply just want to view the story. Again so are you going to tell that full time crafter that stays out of your bird farms , that look even this unsync content over here , even tho I barely do it ever it still should be hard and you should still feel the pain of what hard powerful mechanics are.

SE did the best thing possible with alex by not tying the story to the savage part of the raid, hopefully we want have these complaints in sb. But I just dont understand how all of the people in here can say leave the challenge in content that they barely even do. And def aren't tryin to help someone do it sync, stop being nostalgic about stuff coil as it stand now is nothing else than an extra story line that anybody and everybody should have the right to see.

You guys cant have it all on one hand oh dont you dare put my hw trails in pf I dont wana be placed with noobs, and then in the same breathe be like oh dont make content easier for those same people to finally get their chance to do it. To me if the community sets a standard by deeming something dead and pointless then they shouldnt have any say in what else happens to that said content. You cant keep the strangle hold on content forever let other people have what much enjoyment they can find out of doing this stuff.

Yeah, its truely horrible that playing the game means playing a game and not watching a movie.
If you want to bring other threads into this: Why do you want an ingame parser when you cant stand the idea of putting any effort into the game? To see how little effort it really is you're putting out at any given time?

I'm for equal chances - and everyone has an equal chance of clearing and doing coil. My chance isnt better than yours - I might just be willing to put the effort into it, instead of waiting for someone to do everything for me.

If its "suffering" for you to wip to mechanics and press more than 3 buttons: Please stop hurting yourself and unsub right now.
Because its not only Coil that has mechanics, Coil is just a bit stricter with the punshiment - sitting on your butt, just waiting for it to become so easy that you can faceroll it, makes you a very, very bad player in my book. Not because you're failing, but because you're not even trying. Dont wnat to challenge yourself? Cool, okay, got it. Stay out of content then that is there so people can have a challenge.
For casualy we're getting more and more content each patch, its pilling up. That should be the same for people who want a challenge. There is enough only-story-telling content in this game. Leave Coil alone if you cant handle it and dont want to learn it.

We're not opposed to new people playing this content, not at all - I dare say that most of as are willing to help anyone who wants to learn the fights. We are opposed to have content that we like altered and turned into something that is less enjoyable. How do you like the idea of us saying "Okay, you can have Coil, but in return every level 60 dungeon is made raid-difficult - you had them long enough!"

People are so, so unwilling to put any effort into this that they dont deserve the rewards for it in my book.