Coils of Bahamut... and its inconsistent challenge level.

[HyoMinPark]

HyoMinPark, save yourself the trouble. That person is always right and will not stop repeating themselves until you suffer an aneurism and die.

You do have a point. This isn't the first time I've been in a debate with them either. Just sometimes I can't help myself when I read something just so ridiculous and full of contradictions and hypocrisy. That stuff just bothers me lol. My friends say that, since I like to argue so much and debate with people, that I should just be a lawyer.

I agree with what your saying and I feel the same way.

Oh, I know that you do. And Vidu, and Lace. I'm glad that there are those that feel the same amid the sea of "casual" players here.

By the way, what you said about using unsynced as teaching, and then the different sort of "levels" you take people into content, I like that. I think that, even if it would be kind of overkill and maybe even unnecessary, going into something with just the minimum amount of gear synced down would be a nice way to break the monotony of the endgame grind of tomestones and gear tokens. That sort of (crazy) stuff is the kind of stuff I want to do in my downtime, or when I'm bored. It's basically why I actually started doing my Mentor Roulette. I've been a mentor almost as long as it's been a thing, but just last week started doing the roulette for it.

It was kind of exciting getting thrown into Ifrit Ex with two new people and taking all but 15 minutes of the timer to clear. It was a nice personal challenge because I'm so used to running it unsynced at 60 for WT, so I had to remind myself of how to do the content synced. I enjoyed it, and wasn't even mad about us wiping as much as we did. I kind of wish the Coils were included in Mentor Roulette. Would encourage others to actually learn them properly in order to teach them properly. But since they're more on tier with Savage, it makes sense why they aren't included. Still bummed about it though.

As annoying as I found them before, we need the gates back. We NEED those hard challenges that bring people to a full stop as far as progression and gearing goes. As it stands right now, higher and higher gear - sub-raid level gear - is simply becoming grind tokens that require no real skill to get, just put in 20-30 minutes a day and you'll have an upgrade, guaranteed. No real effort necessary. It's old news now, but when I got my first Darklight piece, I felt like a champ. Why? Cause I beat the Demon Wall. The ORIGINAL Demon Wall. It was tough, but I did it. And I learned a lot in doing it. Yeah, there were wipes, there were bad runs, but when I was able to pull it off consistently, and I got myself a Darklight Corset of Aiming, I was the champ, man.

We NEED that back. Gear currently has no value, because there's no value in the efforts made to get it. Primals have been on a down slope since Thordan, Alexander's (normal) loot system is more of a chore than actual incentive, and as soon as the 24 man raid offers better, it gets left in the dust. No one's going to run anything below A9 multiple times just to get a gear piece, even for glamour. 24 man content becomes avoided because people go expecting others to know how to do everything and do it for them, then wonder why no one's doing anything. We NEED the midcore, and it NEEDS to be a challenge.

This isn't me saying "Make EVERYTHING Coil levels of difficulty since it's an old raid!" This IS me saying we need those challenges that drive people to make LEARNING PARTIES again. Not clear parties, not carries, not "Skip this or life as we know it ends", legit learning parties. We need content that will push people to try and try and try, and look up guides, grab friends who know it or are also trying to learn it; hell MAKE friends who want to clear it just as bad as you do. We need a reason to WANT to progress, and not just do it for the sake of doing it; something to learn to conquer so that we can see what lies beyond it. Cause right now, we don't have that. We have "Skip Soar or disband [because you should be geared enough with all the handouts and know your job well enough by now to push the fight, and because I don't want to have to learn this mechanic]."

^^^^^^^^^
Basically all of this.
Please give me something to make me stop in my tracks, and actually have to reconsider how to approach the content. Please challenge me.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

LOL, Istaru I spilled my drink on my desk when I saw that

It's a win/win honestly. I mean, not for lazy players who are content with the way things are now. BUT!

What this will create:
Higher-skilled players
INCENTIVE
Actual Mentors

Not "I just wanted a crown" types, but people that you can say "Hey that's X person over there! They taught me how to play [job] better." or "Let me invite Y player, they helped me learn and clear this fight. They'll be great to have in party". Skilled players won't be as bored, and Mentors - legit ones - won't be shunned for holding the title but lacking the knowledge it implies. And while this is wishful thinking, it may even inspire some of the casual to midcore players to want to break through the glass ceiling, with that same feeling I had as a newer player when I saw higher geared players and said "I want to learn how to do whatever they did, so I can have that."

It's a dream, but the possibility isn't unrealistic.

[Allyrion]

In the Mr. Happy interview, it was implied there might be more incentives in doing content with minimal ilvl. I think that's a step in the right direction.

I'm super sad to see what T5 has become. I've seen that happen in MMO's but I guess I cared more about Coil than other raids.

That said, I'm not totally against people being able to run through the story. Whatever you have to say about Alex, I think it was a good decision for them to make the story version easier and the Savage as the new Coil difficulty. Accessibility isn't a bad thing.

But I'd like if what is meant to be hard should retain that to some extent. A newer player will hardly know any of the fights as they should be known. If they gave reason to do the min ilvl, then they would know it even if they don't run it commonly (or run the unsynced more).

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I'd be happy if clearing the normal raid wasn't the requirement for the Savage one. Basically, offer the story through both, use the Savage loot system for both (sorry, but token-only grinds on normal are a drag), and let players choose what they will.

Want the challenge and the story? Run Savage
Don't care for the challenge but want the story? Run Normal
Static broke up/taking a break but you REALLY want to see the story through? Switch to running Normal.

I see no real loss in letting both kinds of players get what they want out of it. But having to run normal for the story, then Savage for just challenge and gear felt disjointed. I think that's another reason we look back on Coil with pleasant nostalgia. The story was a reward, not just something to slog through on the way to Savage.

[Dualgunner]

Want the challenge and the story? Run Savage
Don't care for the challenge but want the story? Run Normal
Static broke up/taking a break but you REALLY want to see the story through? Switch to running Normal.

I see no real loss in letting both kinds of players get what they want out of it. But having to run normal for the story, then Savage for just challenge and gear felt disjointed. I think that's another reason we look back on Coil with pleasant nostalgia. The story was a reward, not just something to slog through on the way to Savage.

I always thought it would have been cool to have extra scenes from the savage raids, personally, things that fleshed out the story and added to it that one couldn't get in normal. I remember a game that had different endings based on the difficulty you picked, but for now I think of Kingdom Hearts II ReMIX, where on the hardest difficulty you were guaranteed the extended ending.

[technole]

Going to love it when people think they can just un-sync A8S and get-by in 4.0. If you fail enumeration mechanics you take 99,900 damage. We're not going to get reach that anytime soon, and you can't kill Brute Justice before Gavel since he regains all his HP after intermission 2. I hope they continue to space out these things so that you are forced to learn mechanics for quite some time.

I always thought it would have been cool to have extra scenes from the savage raids, personally, things that fleshed out the story and added to it that one couldn't get in normal. I remember a game that had different endings based on the difficulty you picked, but for now I think of Kingdom Hearts II ReMIX, where on the hardest difficulty you were guaranteed the extended ending.

They already confirmed at JP Fanfest that Omega 4 Savage will have something different than the normal version, and not just mechanics. Hopefully more than just the A8S Winged Justice form, that isn't in normal.

But as far as these raid cannon stories, they have resorted to not locking them behind high-end raiding anymore.

[Istaru]

So this helps people get all their horse mounts ect so then why make coil any different nerf it down to where people can get these rewards just as easy as anything else unsync. Unsync means easy I dont care how you look at it I promise you some people I know would never even clear some of the arr primals sync without gettin frustrated and giving up.

You have touched on what is a sore subject for some people.

Glamour is the true endgame for FFXIV as it is now. People spend more time on glamour progression, this includes mounts, minions and titles as well as glamour items for looks than they do for progression.

This game attacks progression like a fat kid attacks a cake. It attacks it with both hands grabbing it and devouring it creating a mess, it doesn't care, it just belches with pieces of it coming from its opening and reacting with glee as it poops it out at the end.

Some of us feel that is broken. Progression should be more about enjoying the ramp up of difficulty that normally accompanies progression to a goal. Do content A to get geared up for content B and so on. It should not be that you get the best of endgame by doing content while asleep or watching Netflix.

That is the point of contention in this thread.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

So this helps people get all their horse mounts ect so then why make coil any different nerf it down to where people can get these rewards just as easy as anything else unsync. Unsync means easy I dont care how you look at it I promise you some people I know would never even clear some of the arr primals sync without gettin frustrated and giving up.

Unsync means easy IF you already know what you're doing.

Can't perform your job well? It's gonna take forever, you might not clear.
Don't know important mechanics to the fight that either kill or significantly raise the difficulty of continuing? You might not clear.
Read up or have prior knowledge of the fight from either doing it before, or having even a little experience with it? Easy mode.

Unsync means easy IF you know what you're doing.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Double post, but for those asking for Coil nerfs, here's what was already done. I'll be using Second Coil, the hardest tier of the entire Coil raids:

Second Coil of Bahamut – Turn 1
Damage dealt by the attack Blighted Bouquet has been reduced.
This was an instant kill if you didn't stop moving, attacking or auto attacking at the end of the cast.
Damage dealt by the attack Sharp Sting used by dark matter hornets has been reduced.
This was heavy damage from an add to one specific player that couldn't be provoked off. That player, meanwhile, was STILL dealing with all other mechanics including the one that forced you to move away from someone you're tethered to (with increasingly limited space), Blighted Bouquet, and "Devour" and "Spit".
Dark matter hornets will no longer continue to spawn after phase transitions, even when players are afflicted by the Honey-glazed status effect.
This player HAD to get eaten during the "Devour" and "Spit" mechanics or they never stopped coming. If that player died, the boss just honey glazed someone else and everything went on as intended.
Damage dealt by the attack Acid Spray used by acidic honey has been reduced. Furthermore, players will no longer receive a damage vulnerability debuff.
This was a soft enrage. If you hit 10 stacks of vulnerability, you were guaranteed dead on the next spray.

Second Coil of Bahamut – Turn 2
The attack power and evasion of Renaud has been reduced.
This was an instant kill.
The Stone Curse status effect inflicted by Cursed Voice and Cursed Shriek has been changed to Petrification, which now lasts only 10 seconds. Furthermore, petrified players will no longer be immediately incapacitated upon taking damage.
Instant kill removed, and getting petrified wasn't a guaranteed wipe.
When afflicted with Cursed Voice or Cursed Shriek, Renaud will now be petrified for 60 seconds.
They spawned with a heavy debuff. IF somehow they unpetrified, you watched in horror as is sped around the room one-shotting everyone.
Damage dealt by the ground attack Discipline has been reduced.
Ring aoes that significantly made movement (and thus mechanical positioning for Voices, Shrieks, and 2 aoes that targeted ranged only) much more difficult

Second Coil of Bahamut – Turn 3
The enhancing effect granted to the Avatar when multiple support modules are charged in unison has been reduced.
I wasn't even aware of this. But if that means the boss that was already doing a ton of damage even without mechanics would do a little less? Sure.
Damage received from the Languishing effect when operating the support modules has been reduced.
We had to assign people to push tower activations - towers could not activate at the same time or it was a wipe. But pushing towers meant taking damage on top of vulnerability debuffs.
Damage dealt by the attack Landmine Auto-detonation has been reduced.
The mines would appear only briefly, then were invisible after that.
They HAD to be stepped on or they would detonate for even more damage. Furthermore, this was a mechanic triggered by one of the towers. We had to control when we wanted to deal with this.

[Vidu]

"Give us meaningful gear again!"

Yes. This. So much this, please.
It hasnt got a lot do with the topic at hand, being should Coil be nerfed further into the ground or not - but it has to do a lot with a problem this game is facing, at least for me, which is: Outside of savage your gear-numbers matter little. Back in ARR your gear did matter - I remember carefully picking the next item to buy with my tomes throughout the whole circle, carefully contemplating wether or not to buy this headpiece right now or wait til next week to get the chest (I eventually bought the AF2-paladin-chest and was hoping for a dungeon-drop as headpiece so we could go into coil. Each time this specific circlet drops now, I'll roll on it and get a bit wistful when turning it in for seals).
Today? Couldnt care less. I have done 3 expert-roulettes for the recent expert-dungeons. Three. I havent capped tomes in months now, because there is absolutly no reason for me to do so (fair enough, as I mentioned earlier already my main-classes are around 265...) - but even before that I wasnt getting excited at all to get that new gear! I would hold on to tomes and not upgrade items because it matters so, so little outside of savage (or even for savage aswell!) that it didnt seem worth the hassle to replace my chestpiece since that meant I would have to glamour it again!

Right now gear is giving a very false impression of progression because theres just no content where it really matters wether you're wearing an ilvl250 piece, 260 or 270 - so why am I bothering to replace something?