Coils of Bahamut... and its inconsistent challenge level.

[bswpayton]

Oh how the mighty have fallen. The one-time champion of remove all rewards from unsync clears defending unsync now.

Def not defending unsnyc but if the option is there unsync should just mean autoclear cause isnt that the whole point to give access to the content make it 1000 times easier. So its two types of people that run unsync those whom are farming the content mounts etc all that. And those whom would not even touch this content if it wasnt unysnc so for those people that just simply want to get whatever it is they wont out of it it should be as easy as possible.

Because of everyone else the content holds no meaning at all, so why should we ask those less skilled players who stayed out of everyones way to not bring down parties in doing the content sync. To them once SE has given them the tool (unsync) to make them so powerful to where then they to can do it with others that wouldnt normally do it , should any form of the same challenge remain. Those people dont want challenge they just want a clear or goodies , the people who wanted the challenge already got it when it was sync. So I say let the others have it as easy as possible it shouldn't matter at that point.

And maybe you have good friends everyone doesn't I have almost 200 on my list but can count how many are up to do harder forms of content in the game. So the chances of gettin such niche players is very very slim, when I was a sprout still I asked my fc to do sync runs of trails with me and they def recommended doing it unsync like 90 percent of the community does. I dont know why people act like friend equals someone that wants to do the hardest content in the game with you, alot of players are the ones I talked about that dont touch anything outside of 24mans and dungeons.

As far as the nerfs I wasnt here for any arr nerfs but the vault and all of that I dont get yea the last boss is annoying but not really deserving of a nerf, and aurum vale is cheese once you get use to it. Its no reason to nerf any of that stuff, because you still will have people to do it at any given time, nobody does coil people hardly do arr primals so to make them easy would make alot more sense in the realm of unsync

[Lambdafish]

To be perfectly honest I'd rather have faceroll dungeons for expert/60 roulettes. Those dungeons are (kinda) meant to be run on a daily basis when you're early into a raid cycle, so putting challenging mechanics may actually have negative impact on everyone, if they become too bothersome or difficult that subpar pugs take either very long to clear or just outright unable to clear them. Of course there should be a sweet spot between interesting/challenging and troublesome/annoying, but for something you run everyday it's probably a very thin line. I'm fine with higher difficulty on story trials or even solo encounters, or even new type of challenging light party contents, but I don't really want a hard expert roulette.

I said difficulty akin to the vault... Is that really too hard? The thing is that having faceroll dungeons actually causes a lot of problems with the game. It's like if you teach someone to ride a bike, then stick stabilisers on the bike for 6 months, how good are they really going to be at riding the bike after those 6 months, and how dependent will they be on the stabilisers? (wonky analogy but you get the point)

[HyoMinPark]

But whats the point tho if you want challenge try to do xander now or the hw primals. While Im not nerf happy , its really no reason to keep something challenging if its artificial challenge through unsync. Its no reason to get triggered by this because the op clearly was tryin to do the content sync its not his fault that the community didnt want to do this, so when he finally got in the obstacles didnt seem worth the fact that at this point its meaningless content.

You misread. OP queued into T11 with an undersized party all at level 60 and around i240+. His group then messed up the add phase, which normally would cause an instant wipe, however, it seems that the damage is capped, since they did not die. OP wasn't doing this synced down to 50. What the OP wants is for the developers to spend time retuning this fight for level 60s (which, in two months, they'll probably ask for it to retuned again for level 70s). If the devs won't do that, then he's demanding the content be further nerfed, which it already has 20%/30% echo bonuses automatically. It doesn't need anymore.

As for your comment about Alexander vs. Coil, myself and quite a few others prefer Coil--the story, the fights, the aesthetic the fact that even though we're "OP" and we can still wipe...that stuff is exciting. I find it more of a challenge to get a group together that doesn't try to zerg through everything.

He wasnt lookin for a hand out he even requested to bump the content up to level 60 with new rewards but people dont want that either, so he has a point and dont really think he was asking for a hand out. They are just simply stating if nobody is doing this and the only thing here is story why cant we just bomb rush this with the feature that is meant to allow such bomb rushing.

Okay, so say that the developers decided to retune Coil for Stormblood. What content would you give up for them to have the time and resources to do so? Ex primals? Omega? The new 24-mans? Because it's doubtful you could have both. There is no reason to retune Coil. Obviously, since the OP and his group messed up T11 unsynced at 60, it's still challenging. If OP wants a challenge, he can try two-manning T5 unsynced. Or two-manning T13 unsynced. Or going into Second Coil Savage for extra fun. Or, he can get a full group together using Party Finder, and go into the turns at minimum ilvl, which will automatically sync you down to level 50 as well.

In its prime, Coil was designed to be equally as hard as Alexander Savage. Not Alexander Normal. SCoB Savage was even more difficult, with tighter mechanics and bosses that hit harder/with more HP. It was the 8-man raid that required a static, not a PUG Duty Finder group. What OP wants is for people to queue directly into Coil, synced, via the Duty Finder. But I think what he fails to realize is, that most of those queues and most of those PUGs would not have what it takes to clear some turns synced down (T5, T9, T13 all come to mind). Same as how I think the DF queues for A12S result in more wipes or vote abandons than clears. This content is not meant to be "one-hit pull"/"tank and spank" content. It actually requires strategy, and situational awareness. Because some of the mechanics are extremely unforgiving, even at level 60.

Wall Sempai in Heavensward primals only ticks for 9,999 damage a second. Wall Sempai in Coil just kills you outright, regardless of HP pool. Twintania's Twisters are just as unforgiving at level 60 as they are at level 50. And if you screw up T9's meteor/golem phase, it's all over whether your level 50 or level 60. Unsynced does not equate to faceroll, or easier. If you think Coil is so faceroll easy, queue into T5 just you and a healer, or T13, just you and healer, and then tell us how easy it is to clear those with only two people. Or even solo.

Unsynced dungeons may be faceroll. And unsynced ARR primals may also be faceroll, if you don't push certain ones to the point where they insta-kill you with their ultimate. But unsynced Coil is an entirely different beast. Some turns may be easy, but others certainly are not.

[aleph_null]

I said difficulty akin to the vault... Is that really too hard?

It has been a while since I last ran vault, but even though I wasn't there for pharos pre-nerf I was under the impression that it was hard enough to make pugs wipe, from what I read. Weeping city was ok since it's something you run once a week, so 1-2 wipes would be bearable, but 1-2 wipes on average in something I run daily, yeah I'd rather not. I don't remember if vault was that hard or not though.

The thing is that having faceroll dungeons actually causes a lot of problems with the game. It's like if you teach someone to ride a bike, then stick stabilisers on the bike for 6 months, how good are they really going to be at riding the bike after those 6 months, and how dependent will they be on the stabilisers? (wonky analogy but you get the point)

Good point, though I'd still prefer if they gate contents by using harder solo instances or story trials, or even require completion of the correlated stone sky sea trial before queuing into ex/savage via DF/RF (make it such that when you clear a stone sky sea trial, you unlock everything else that has lower dps requirements, so it won't be too much of a hassle).

[Vincent_Mateus]

Your definition of how unsync should benefit and be used is largely different than most other people here if you haven't noticed. Unsync can't make people better at the game. If you wipe to meteors in t9 at 50, you'll wipe at 60, and 70 when that's a thing. This is why you should remember this thread, when people cry about Alexander Savage being too hard to clear unsynced. Because they suck at mechanics. Because everything gets nerfed before players suck it up and actually improve.

[Vidu]

It has been a while since I last ran vault, but even though I wasn't there for pharos pre-nerf I was under the impression that it was hard enough to make pugs wipe, from what I read. Weeping city was ok since it's something you run once a week, so 1-2 wipes would be bearable, but 1-2 wipes on average in something I run daily, yeah I'd rather not. I don't remember if vault was that hard or not though.

It made PUGs wipe because they ignored mechanics - not killing adds and other, very simple stuff. It wasnt actually difficult - it simply required you to pay a bit of attention to the content and the mechanics.

[Lambdafish]

It has been a while since I last ran vault, but even though I wasn't there for pharos pre-nerf I was under the impression that it was hard enough to make pugs wipe, from what I read. Weeping city was ok since it's something you run once a week, so 1-2 wipes would be bearable, but 1-2 wipes on average in something I run daily, yeah I'd rather not. I don't remember if vault was that hard or not though.

The vault is nowhere near as hard as Pharos Sirius was, and even then it was only really one boss that got nerfed (the first one). The problem with the boss is that he hit a bit hard, and the strategy wasn't all that clearly telegraphed, which led to wipes. This was a design problem, not a difficulty problem, but the motivation of the devs was still the same. The vault is a different story, wipes are not that frequent, but the dungeon is demanding on all players, and actually feels like what you would expect from an endgame dungeon (see also: Aurum vale/Amdapor Keep pre nerf/Wanderers Palace)

[aleph_null]

It made PUGs wipe because they ignored mechanics - not killing adds and other, very simple stuff. It wasnt actually difficult - it simply required you to pay a bit of attention to the content and the mechanics.

That's precisely my point, if a lot of pugs wipe due to whatever mechanics/dps check/heal check/positioning/anything that matters, it'll be bothersome to do the roulettes everyday unless you run with a premade party. I like challenging contents, I want harder ex/savage contents, but harder expert roulette (with pugs) is the last thing I want lol.

The vault is nowhere near as hard as Pharos Sirius was, and even then it was only really one boss that got nerfed (the first one). The problem with the boss is that he hit hard, and the strategy wasn't all that clearly telegraphed, which led to wipes frequently. This was a design problem, not a difficulty problem, but the motivation of the devs was still the same. The vault is a different story, wipes are not that frequent, but the dungeon is demanding on all players, and actually feels like what you would expect from an endgame dungeon (see also: Aurum vale/Amdapor Keep pre nerf/Wanderers Palace)

I see, I only ran vault a few times a long time ago so I can't really recall much of it. I do remember moving the boss to dodge the knights at one of the bosses though. Aurum vale didn't strike me as a hard dungeon (it is kinda long and takes a while to clear, but not really hard), but probably because I'm usually the tank so it's less risk of wiping at the second boss (dodging cleaves and circular aoe). Ironically what aurum vale taught me the most was carefully pulling mobs so you won't lure too many, which is kinda useless in every other dungeon/trial/raid in the game lol.

Anyway let's stop here, we're getting too far out of topic.

[Lambdafish]

That's precisely my point, if a lot of pugs wipe due to whatever mechanics/dps check/heal check/positioning/anything that matters, it'll be bothersome to do the roulettes everyday unless you run with a premade party. I like challenging contents, I want harder ex/savage contents, but harder expert roulette (with pugs) is the last thing I want lol.

I go back to my point about the bike, we want to improve player mentality regarding paying attention. The problem with Pharos Sirius actually wasn't that it was too hard at the time (see vidu's post), it was that players were choosing the other dungeons over it to grind tomestones because they were the path of least resistance, and significantly easier. If all dungeons were brought to a higher baseline, alongside a hall of intermediate and better clarity from the battle system, I believe we would see an improvement in players.

I'd rather not dumb down the playerbase because communicating with players and having dynamic interactions (maybe going as far as wiping every now and then) is too bothersome for you. The best dungeon experiences I have had are the ones where we have been handicapped in some way and we need to actually put some thought in.

[Silverquick]

This is the kicker, the devs actually listen and do nerf these pieces of content. I loved Pharos Sirius pre nerf, I loved Steps of faith pre nerf. I thought they represented true end game casual content until the nerf. Thankfully 3.3 was one of the best patches ever in terms of difficulty, weeping city was pushed so hard by the community to be kept the way it was and I felt that Nidhogg story actually provided a surprising challenge the first time around. Shame that mentality didn't stay though...

Just need to get those dungeons back up to vault difficulty and I will be happy.

Well who said "nerf" specifically...

I only recall saying either update them for level 60 (soon to be level 70) content... or nerf them to level 50 dungeon mechanics... and to stop leaving them as half assed content no one plays anymore...

...because right now they're sitting empty... and getting a que for them is impossible... unlike the way you can easily queue for either Alex or Dun so you will find people to run them as intended. But they're stuck in the half assed phase where they are neither one... nor the other so they're sitting empty.

That said... I do now see this thread as a complete waste of time...

Its become painfully apparent from this thread and many others that most of the people here don't even play this game anymore... they're that out of touch with it at this point. Its like they're stuck in their glory days or living in their own little world.

1. I've watched people asking for a total revamp of the Summoner without having any clue how fun or powerful they are right now... or popular for that matter... its like they never played it past 50th.

2. I've watched some asking for uni-sex glamors when the actual ones given are the very ones that are so unpopular people glamor out of them as soon as possible.. while I've seen people into the Glamors, they tend to like screwy pumpkin head or moogle, or Disneyland type Glamors, or showy flashy noble type glamors... ie, anything but unisex. They are obviously just as out of touch and living in their own world.

3. And in this thread I have some people who seem to have no clue that Coils is old news and not "the latest uber raid", and no one plays it anymore so if you want to make it relevant with the new content its got to change, either up or down, and not stay as some half assed "glory days" wannabe.

I don't think half the people on this board even play the game seriously anymore... and if I can pick that out... the devs likely can spot it a mile away too...

They likely don't even bother to read these boards anymore.... So its a complete waste of time. The people here are just that out of touch with the actual game as it is now.