Coils of Bahamut... and its inconsistent challenge level.

[Istaru]

This is just simply messed up to me on the one hand you cant encourage people to say screw this content get on this new content over here. Because you and others have been there to do it , and then say well you cant do it like we did it, but you still should have to work for it. Thats just dumb to me if the community doesn't run this content sync then , those that just wana see it simply view it shouldn't have any hurdles in doing so.

Oh how the mighty have fallen. The one-time champion of remove all rewards from unsync clears defending unsync now.

It's called party finder and friends. Early in HW, I had friends who wanted to clear the ARR primals and coil and wanted help from experienced help. I gathered them up and offered to do it for them on a condition. We would clear them synced, at level 50. What ever were we do to? We spent the time for them to learn and we cleared them. Anyone can do the same. ANYONE. The only thing lacking is desire. Too many people dont want any challenges anymore.

Nobody is asking for a cupcake game , I mean the post on the asking to nerf potd is a bit much but the majority of people arent asking for such things.

I disagree!! Nerf Pharos Sirius. Nerf the bees in Amdapor Keep! Nerf Steps of Faith! Nerf Weeping City! Nerf Final Steps of Faith! Nerf Aurum Vale! Nerf The Vault! Nerf! Nerf! Nerf! Ever since PS and AK, the challenge level of EX dungeons has gone down and down from all the cries of "it's too hard". They are asking for a cupcake game.

But you cant speak with two tongues and tell everyone to skip everything thats not current , but then say well you still need somewhat of a challenge. Once you deem that content old not worth doing for u urself to do then what do you care whether someone else has it way easier. To me if you aren't willing to jump in and help someone get a similar experience to what you yourself had then you should not care how easy it is or not. Thats the problem I see here all these people saying oh dont nerf coil but how many would do a sync run with anyone that wanted one very few. So if you dont even care about the content yourself then dont get mad if someone wants it to be as easy as possible. Once this content is not worth it to the majority it should be as easy as possible for others whom just want to get past it.

See above, I do old content, synced and at times min ilvl too. I do it BECAUSE I care about their experience. Challenge and failure are what make victory as sweet as it is. Without them, victory is meaningless.

[Lambdafish]

I disagree!! Nerf Pharos Sirius. Nerf the bees in Amdapor Keep! Nerf Steps of Faith! Nerf Weeping City! Nerf Final Steps of Faith! Nerf Aurum Vale! Nerf The Vault! Nerf! Nerf! Nerf! Ever since PS and AK, the challenge level of EX dungeons has gone down and down from all the cries of "it's too hard". They are asking for a cupcake game.

This is the kicker, the devs actually listen and do nerf these pieces of content. I loved Pharos Sirius pre nerf, I loved Steps of faith pre nerf. I thought they represented true end game casual content until the nerf. Thankfully 3.3 was one of the best patches ever in terms of difficulty, weeping city was pushed so hard by the community to be kept the way it was and I felt that Nidhogg story actually provided a surprising challenge the first time around. Shame that mentality didn't stay though...

Just need to get those dungeons back up to vault difficulty and I will be happy.

[aleph_null]

This is the kicker, the devs actually listen and do nerf these pieces of content. I loved Pharos Sirius pre nerf, I loved Steps of faith pre nerf. I thought they represented true end game casual content until the nerf. Thankfully 3.3 was one of the best patches ever in terms of difficulty, weeping city was pushed so hard by the community to be kept the way it was and I felt that Nidhogg story actually provided a surprising challenge the first time around. Shame that mentality didn't stay though...

Just need to get those dungeons back up to vault difficulty and I will be happy.

To be perfectly honest I'd rather have faceroll dungeons for expert/60 roulettes. Those dungeons are (kinda) meant to be run on a daily basis when you're early into a raid cycle, so putting challenging mechanics may actually have negative impact on everyone, if they become too bothersome or difficult that subpar pugs take either very long to clear or just outright unable to clear them. Of course there should be a sweet spot between interesting/challenging and troublesome/annoying, but for something you run everyday it's probably a very thin line. I'm fine with higher difficulty on story trials or even solo encounters, or even new type of challenging light party contents, but I don't really want a hard expert roulette.

[Lambdafish]

To be perfectly honest I'd rather have faceroll dungeons for expert/60 roulettes. Those dungeons are (kinda) meant to be run on a daily basis when you're early into a raid cycle, so putting challenging mechanics may actually have negative impact on everyone, if they become too bothersome or difficult that subpar pugs take either very long to clear or just outright unable to clear them. Of course there should be a sweet spot between interesting/challenging and troublesome/annoying, but for something you run everyday it's probably a very thin line. I'm fine with higher difficulty on story trials or even solo encounters, or even new type of challenging light party contents, but I don't really want a hard expert roulette.

I said difficulty akin to the vault... Is that really too hard? The thing is that having faceroll dungeons actually causes a lot of problems with the game. It's like if you teach someone to ride a bike, then stick stabilisers on the bike for 6 months, how good are they really going to be at riding the bike after those 6 months, and how dependent will they be on the stabilisers? (wonky analogy but you get the point)

[aleph_null]

I said difficulty akin to the vault... Is that really too hard?

It has been a while since I last ran vault, but even though I wasn't there for pharos pre-nerf I was under the impression that it was hard enough to make pugs wipe, from what I read. Weeping city was ok since it's something you run once a week, so 1-2 wipes would be bearable, but 1-2 wipes on average in something I run daily, yeah I'd rather not. I don't remember if vault was that hard or not though.

The thing is that having faceroll dungeons actually causes a lot of problems with the game. It's like if you teach someone to ride a bike, then stick stabilisers on the bike for 6 months, how good are they really going to be at riding the bike after those 6 months, and how dependent will they be on the stabilisers? (wonky analogy but you get the point)

Good point, though I'd still prefer if they gate contents by using harder solo instances or story trials, or even require completion of the correlated stone sky sea trial before queuing into ex/savage via DF/RF (make it such that when you clear a stone sky sea trial, you unlock everything else that has lower dps requirements, so it won't be too much of a hassle).

[Vidu]

It has been a while since I last ran vault, but even though I wasn't there for pharos pre-nerf I was under the impression that it was hard enough to make pugs wipe, from what I read. Weeping city was ok since it's something you run once a week, so 1-2 wipes would be bearable, but 1-2 wipes on average in something I run daily, yeah I'd rather not. I don't remember if vault was that hard or not though.

It made PUGs wipe because they ignored mechanics - not killing adds and other, very simple stuff. It wasnt actually difficult - it simply required you to pay a bit of attention to the content and the mechanics.

[aleph_null]

It made PUGs wipe because they ignored mechanics - not killing adds and other, very simple stuff. It wasnt actually difficult - it simply required you to pay a bit of attention to the content and the mechanics.

That's precisely my point, if a lot of pugs wipe due to whatever mechanics/dps check/heal check/positioning/anything that matters, it'll be bothersome to do the roulettes everyday unless you run with a premade party. I like challenging contents, I want harder ex/savage contents, but harder expert roulette (with pugs) is the last thing I want lol.

The vault is nowhere near as hard as Pharos Sirius was, and even then it was only really one boss that got nerfed (the first one). The problem with the boss is that he hit hard, and the strategy wasn't all that clearly telegraphed, which led to wipes frequently. This was a design problem, not a difficulty problem, but the motivation of the devs was still the same. The vault is a different story, wipes are not that frequent, but the dungeon is demanding on all players, and actually feels like what you would expect from an endgame dungeon (see also: Aurum vale/Amdapor Keep pre nerf/Wanderers Palace)

I see, I only ran vault a few times a long time ago so I can't really recall much of it. I do remember moving the boss to dodge the knights at one of the bosses though. Aurum vale didn't strike me as a hard dungeon (it is kinda long and takes a while to clear, but not really hard), but probably because I'm usually the tank so it's less risk of wiping at the second boss (dodging cleaves and circular aoe). Ironically what aurum vale taught me the most was carefully pulling mobs so you won't lure too many, which is kinda useless in every other dungeon/trial/raid in the game lol.

Anyway let's stop here, we're getting too far out of topic.

[Lambdafish]

It has been a while since I last ran vault, but even though I wasn't there for pharos pre-nerf I was under the impression that it was hard enough to make pugs wipe, from what I read. Weeping city was ok since it's something you run once a week, so 1-2 wipes would be bearable, but 1-2 wipes on average in something I run daily, yeah I'd rather not. I don't remember if vault was that hard or not though.

The vault is nowhere near as hard as Pharos Sirius was, and even then it was only really one boss that got nerfed (the first one). The problem with the boss is that he hit a bit hard, and the strategy wasn't all that clearly telegraphed, which led to wipes. This was a design problem, not a difficulty problem, but the motivation of the devs was still the same. The vault is a different story, wipes are not that frequent, but the dungeon is demanding on all players, and actually feels like what you would expect from an endgame dungeon (see also: Aurum vale/Amdapor Keep pre nerf/Wanderers Palace)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

To be perfectly honest I'd rather have faceroll dungeons for expert/60 roulettes. Those dungeons are (kinda) meant to be run on a daily basis when you're early into a raid cycle, so putting challenging mechanics may actually have negative impact on everyone, if they become too bothersome or difficult that subpar pugs take either very long to clear or just outright unable to clear them. Of course there should be a sweet spot between interesting/challenging and troublesome/annoying, but for something you run everyday it's probably a very thin line. I'm fine with higher difficulty on story trials or even solo encounters, or even new type of challenging light party contents, but I don't really want a hard expert roulette.

I hate to double post, but I can't ignore this.


This is a very serious issue with current endgame dungeon content. The devs, if not Yoshi P himself share this mindset that the "daily level" content shouldn't be too challenging, so they keep the bar low, but this in turn makes for content that quickly gets boring. So they try interesting visuals, but the novelty of those fades and we're left with more of the same. So they try to throw a curveball with a little difficulty in the form of an old mechanic with a new coat of paint, but now people who are used to easy content, or worse, have avoided challenging content don't know how to handle it or adapt. (Side Note: The "Acceleration Bomb" in Ozma and the second boss of Baelsar's Wall's mine attack are both effectively the Blighted Bouquet mechanic from Turn 6, minus the instant kill. The same type of "stop and go" mechanic appears in A10S as well)

This is where the camp is split. For those of us who did push ourselves to face the challenge before, we adapt faster and have less issue with it. But for those who simply want things to remain easy or unchallenging, suddenly level 50 raid mechanics in a level 60 dungeon are "too hard" and people cry for nerfs, unaware that you're already dealing with simplified mechanics, many of which now have large telegraph markers where they once didn't. Things can only get so easy before they're just disproportionate or not even worth the time put into them. And the easier they get, the faster they become boring. Then it becomes a no-win situation for both players and devs. Devs can't challenge players because they don't know and don't want challenge, and players become bored with continuously low-bar content.

This may step on toes to say this, but if you want a better game, YOU (players in general) need to get better.

[Silverquick]

This is the kicker, the devs actually listen and do nerf these pieces of content. I loved Pharos Sirius pre nerf, I loved Steps of faith pre nerf. I thought they represented true end game casual content until the nerf. Thankfully 3.3 was one of the best patches ever in terms of difficulty, weeping city was pushed so hard by the community to be kept the way it was and I felt that Nidhogg story actually provided a surprising challenge the first time around. Shame that mentality didn't stay though...

Just need to get those dungeons back up to vault difficulty and I will be happy.

Well who said "nerf" specifically...

I only recall saying either update them for level 60 (soon to be level 70) content... or nerf them to level 50 dungeon mechanics... and to stop leaving them as half assed content no one plays anymore...

...because right now they're sitting empty... and getting a que for them is impossible... unlike the way you can easily queue for either Alex or Dun so you will find people to run them as intended. But they're stuck in the half assed phase where they are neither one... nor the other so they're sitting empty.

That said... I do now see this thread as a complete waste of time...

Its become painfully apparent from this thread and many others that most of the people here don't even play this game anymore... they're that out of touch with it at this point. Its like they're stuck in their glory days or living in their own little world.

1. I've watched people asking for a total revamp of the Summoner without having any clue how fun or powerful they are right now... or popular for that matter... its like they never played it past 50th.

2. I've watched some asking for uni-sex glamors when the actual ones given are the very ones that are so unpopular people glamor out of them as soon as possible.. while I've seen people into the Glamors, they tend to like screwy pumpkin head or moogle, or Disneyland type Glamors, or showy flashy noble type glamors... ie, anything but unisex. They are obviously just as out of touch and living in their own world.

3. And in this thread I have some people who seem to have no clue that Coils is old news and not "the latest uber raid", and no one plays it anymore so if you want to make it relevant with the new content its got to change, either up or down, and not stay as some half assed "glory days" wannabe.

I don't think half the people on this board even play the game seriously anymore... and if I can pick that out... the devs likely can spot it a mile away too...

They likely don't even bother to read these boards anymore.... So its a complete waste of time. The people here are just that out of touch with the actual game as it is now.