Could XIV become the origin point of Omega? (spoilers for 3.56 and other games)

[Megidolaon]

This is mostly wishful thinking on my part but after the intital disappointment wore off a friend and I got into discussing how Omega and Shinryu are usually depictated as the same entities throughout all of their appearances, not unlike Gilgamesh, and how they could very well continue being the same entities despite XIV setting up very clear backstories for them.

Gilgamesh now (allegedly) originating from Type-0 combined with Omega's raid being in a place beyond even the reach of time got me thinking: could they be inclined to do the same for our favorite recurring murderbot?

Omega's level of technology has often been far greater than that of even the greatest of marvels present in nearly all of the games it appeared in. That is, right up until our very own Allag, who also fit the bill of the lost, highly advanced civilization that is often referenced when Omega comes into play...

[Anonymoose]

This is just one Square Enix outsider's worthless opinion, but I'd be upset on behalf of a director if the company took it out of their hands to opt-in to anything. Anything. On the vague foundations of world-building in general, I think Gilgamesh and Omega and Shinryu shouldn't be any different than chocobos or moogles - appearing in most installments, but the final say on if and how lying with the leadership of the team.

Example: If one director says their moogles crossed the Interdissidomegamesh Rift, does every director thereafter have to conform? Should fans retcon their understanding of past titles into a new context?

The way I perceive it currently, and I could be absolutely wrong, sharing the universe of a game, or a small piece of it, has been a choice - and a choice some have made. Sometimes it's the entire basis of a character or game. But it doesn't seem mandatory, does it?

As I said a few days ago:

The way I perceive it currently, and I could be absolutely wrong, Final Fantasy XIV has been allowing other stories to opt-in to it without being the breaker of its own rules for anyone. Something in Final Fantasy XI's world allowed it (temporarily, and in an isolated manner) to break our world's rules (Shantotto). Something in Final Fantasy XIII's world allowed it (temporarily, and in an isolated manner) to break our world's rules (Bhunivelze). Even when it's outside of an event and taken a bit more seriously, Nybeth just is, and from some vague otherwhere.

I think it's entirely up to Team Yoshida where Omega came from for them, and just like they shouldn't be able to be forced to say it's from any directly from other FF then inherently connected to Hydaelyn, other installments shouldn't be forced to say XIV was Patient Zero for their use of something.

As far as I know, Omega was built by the Allagans. However, it has deliberately alien and otherworldly themes to it. We know that the Ascians assisted in Allag's expansion of technology, and we know that Tiamat blames the Ascians for Allag possessing the capability to capture primals. Perhaps, like the power source of Ultima (the Heart of Sabik), Omega has bits of otherworldly origin. Or perhaps the Bend of Time we'll see in 4.0 truly is using bits of Chrono lore as a "vague otherwhere" like Nybeth did with Tactics Ogre. We'll have to see!

However, as has been the theme of this accidental manifesto (sorry for that, by the way), I personally believe being able to opt-in and opt-out is a fundamental right of a Final Fantasy director, so I don't try very hard to do mental gymnastics with the franchise canon where it doesn't force me to.

[Con_Carne]

I think that 3.56 has showed us the true origin not only for Omega, but for Shinryu as well, before both were banished to the Rift. Once there, they obviously broke up their connection with FFXIV's world and now they continue their endless battle through all worlds. By unknown ways, some people (like Valfodr in XIII-2) know about Omega's creation by an old otherworldly civilization (not mentioned, but now we know it's Allag). As for Shinryu, we've seen it's not a simple primal, so maybe it doesn't need to feed aether, so it can survive in the Rift.

I don't think other FF directors shall be forced... Omega and Shinryu have been appearing since FFV, without details of their origins. Dissidia talked a bit of them, and FFXIV has showed us their origins. Future appearances doesn't need to talk about Hydaelyn nor Allag, that is done. They just can be again optional otherworldly superbosses like always. Like Gilgamesh, whose origins were showed in Type-0, and his following appearances obviously doesn't focus on it, just appears with his own agenda. (This doesn't includes the FF9, 11, nor 15 versions, since they are different counterparts from those worlds).

As for the Chocobo, Moogles thing... They are just races which exist in many worlds, like sheeps cats, goblins, coeurls... It's not the same thing. Nothing otherworldly there...

[Megidolaon]

Carne said basically anything I could've better so can I just say that a Moose post is probably the best possible outcome for this thread even if he's tearing me a structurally superfluous new behind?

[Lambdafish]

If one director says their moogles crossed the Interdissidomegamesh Rift, does every director thereafter have to conform? Should fans retcon their understanding of past titles into a new context?

I disagree with this on the basis that this is presented as a possible origin for Omega, if it is kept ambiguous then it can be further retconned later. I love it as a nod, as speculation and theorycrafting, but I think that it should be kept as is, with perhaps a few more obscure references within the IDR

[Anonymoose]

even if he's tearing me a structurally superfluous new behind?

Aw, that's the last thing I want people to feel!
Unless we're talking the year. I will fight hoof and antler until World Lore team confirms <trails off grumbling>

I can't stress enough that I see my opinion as having no meaningful weight on this issue, lol.
I just personally have a preference that each game should be discrete unless the directors make the choice themselves to connect them.

But I suppose if MUH FEELZ count as debate fodder, I should leave a rambling manifesto be articulate.

By all means: disagree, reframe, state UR FEELZ.

(Why did I write this, I am full of regret.)

First, some concessions:

• Square Enix owns the title and every game within it, other people just work on it.
• There is a council of people who have the final say on everything Final Fantasy.
• These two entities can do anything they damn well please.

That being said, my personal opinion: something about giving writers and directors an isolated world and then modifying its scenario and world lore without them, sometimes over a decade later, feels wrong.

Say the company puts Hironobu Sakaguchi in charge of an isolated Final Fantasy V around 1992, and he says "This is Omega! It just came through the Rift! It's a mystery!"

If someone is put in charge of an isolated Final Fantasy XX in 2050 and says, "This is Omega! It just came through the Rift! It's the same one from Final Fantasy V! It did ... you know, whatever it did to get to that game, and came to my game!" that's one thing.

But isn't it something else for someone to say, "Actually, Gooch-san, it's not a mystery anymore. Your Omega now came from my game."

It's fun for players from the crossover point of view, and it makes money, but it also says that it's okay to just take it for granted that the structural integrity of any game is up for grabs.

At least Return to Ivalice, if it actually connects the two titles, is overseen by both Naoki Yoshida and Yasumi Matsuno (Final Fantasy Tactics director and writer; Final Fantasy XII concept creator and scenario writer).

The problem with trying to keep it all straight as a fan is that even though SE never fully crosses that line (as far as I can tell, I could be very wrong here), they keep throwing rocks at the hornet's nest knowing people might see it for more than an homage, nod, semi-canon pseudocanon-postscript-superboss, fun event, etc.

For me, Dissidia is the Alien vs. Predator of Final Fantasy; a sort of alternate universe whereby there are new crossover rules in play. But do these things go backwards, too? Is Dissidia now canon to Final Fantasy X? Is that just where Tidus and Jecht went now? Should it come up in X-3? Should Wakka talk about his time in Kingdom Hearts? Why doesn't Y'shtola ever mention Cosmos?

"But Gilgamesh clearly said Bartz" echoes through my head again.

Do we then shun FFIX for not getting on board with Gilgamesh? If they're all the same, does Type-0 Gilgamesh now concretely define him as a l'Cie in games where Fal'cie and Bhunivelze and Etro aren't things? Is Shinryu now concretely an aetheric thoughtform in every game? It was Ilberd and the Allagans all along? Is it enough for Final Fantasy XIV to be the origin of Omega and Shinryu ... in Final Fantasy XIV?

I just flee screaming from all of these and follow the Opt-In Doctrine, lol.

[MagiusNecros]

Lore seems to dictate that this Shinryu and Omega are XIV exclusive iterations. GILGAMESH in XIV is the dimension hopping one.

[Con_Carne]

Is Dissidia now canon to Final Fantasy X? Is that just where Tidus and Jecht went now? Should it come up in X-3? Should Wakka talk about his time in Kingdom Hearts? Why doesn't Y'shtola ever mention Cosmos?

Being canon or not, it's known that the Dissidia events are erased from the memories of the warriors, so it won't affect to any FFX-3. The same with Y'shtola (though she never truly met Cosmos).

As for KH Wakka, he is not the same from FFX. This is different since they are different counterparts, with different childhood and different worlds, they are not the same. Is like Gilgamesh: Yes, the V version is the same from VIII, XII, XIII-2, XIV, Type-0... But the worlds of IX, XI, and XV have their own counterparts, not the same world-traveller.

[Anonymoose]

Being canon or not, it's known that the Dissidia events are erased from the memories of the warriors, so it won't affect to any FFX-3. The same with Y'shtola (though she never truly met Cosmos).

As for KH Wakka, he is not the same from FFX. This is different since they are different counterparts, with different childhood and different worlds, they are not the same.

Butchered phrasing aside (my familiarity with those titles is pretty low, so thanks for the corrections), that is (thankfully) at least the thing I was hoping to highlight: the crossovers go pretty far out of their way to answer all of those questions with "no", as if we're not meant to apply them backwards where it would tread on the origin titles themselves.

Yes, the V version is the same from VIII, XII, XIII-2, XIV, Type-0... But the worlds of IX, XI, and XV have their own counterparts, not the same world-traveller.

The "yes" to that part I did not expect, though, actually, lol. I know that Gilgamesh V (Exdeath associate; Bartz rival) was used an an opt-in basis in VIII (implied directly), XII (suggestive; weapons perhaps imply more homage than not), and XIV (suggestive / thematic). That part I don't have to grapple much with. But something official confirmed that Type-0 Gilgamesh is that Gilgamesh and not a one-off counterpart that hits a lot of the hallmarks? I thought Fabula Nova Crystalis was an isolated cosmology and that was just a thing that popped up on Wikia and reddit (where the theory incidentally ties him most strongly to XI, lol).

I apparently have non-XIV research to do! </teleports away>

And I really need to stop letting myself get dragged into "all Final Fantasy games are connected" conspiracy maps.
Aside from XI and XIV, my knowledge amounts to "I played them once." in pretty much every case.

[SilverArrow20XX]

There are multiple Omegas. There's Omega Mk II in the GBA version of FFV and Omega Mk XII in FFXII for instance. Dissidia strongly implies that at least one of these Omegas was a war machine created during the war of the Lufaine in FFI's world (created to oppose Lufenia's Warmech/Death Machine perhaps). Ancient Lufenia was definitely comparable to Allag when it came to tech.

As for Shinryu, it's entirely possible that this is a primal imagining of the real Shinryu. It is a dragon that already existed in Doma legend after all.