Why everyone wants do PotD speed run?

[Shougun]

It's boring, but doing otherwise is a waste of dev work. When's the last time you saw someone do the side rooms in Sastasha in the duty finder? Or take the left path (or god forbid, both) in Toto-Rak? Or even go into the side rooms in Tam-Tara or Copperbell? I only sometimes succeed in getting people to let eggs hatch in Aurum Vale, and that actually is a much more efficient use of time. Similarly, no one gets the side loot in Wanderer's Palace, or really any dungeon unless it's literally three seconds out of the way or less (and sometimes not even then).

So what's the point of adding this content? All it does is get ignored by most of the community, and annoy those like us who actually want to explore the dungeons. Personally, I'd rather have no content to miss than be pressured to miss content.

Yea, and I tried to cover that (you're right that reward is very important). This is why I said you make it more efficient use of their time to do this side content, but also make it shift with that advantage. So the side room in Satasha could be a treasure room, a trap room, a mini boss (but again making sure efficiency = doing more content). Also the other point was simple (they have shown they can switch out entities on a map based on circumstances) changes that don't take much effort (well maybe a mini boss might), each one is telling players to explore but at the same time the truth is it is "optional" even though people will play it like its more mandatory. (Although that part also covered just making a dungeon varied by even making linear routes change sometimes, just so people go "What.. what happened tot he bridge we normally use?. . . I guess we'll go into this cave instead").

It plays on people's minds that its optional but not, while also allowing better variations - this is what happens with the traveling conversations (teleportating/mounts, even boss strategies). People do what is most efficient even if its not enjoyable, if you can make efficiency playing the content /more/ then you can do more things in that content that normally players would ignore entirely.

If you leave it as is, people will ignore all things to finish it faster - which is currently quantity quantity. You have less design freedom with leaving it alone, and you /can/ make things encouraged to complete more content per run vs how we have now.

Evaluating a content by the reward over time, if there are areas that are optional but make that reward over time better (or even much better) compared to bare minimum runs then people /will/ shift to doing that side content even though it is still optional. This allows you to actually design optional content again, rather than the always linear hallways we have now.

[Talraen]

Yea... and I covered all of that already. This is why I said you make it more efficient use of their time to do this side content, but also make it shift with that advantage. So the side room in Satasha could be a treasure room, a trap room, a mini boss (but again making sure efficiency = doing more content). Also the other point was simple (they have shown they can switch out entities on a map based on circumstances) changes that don't take much effort (well maybe a mini boss might), each one is telling players to explore but at the same time the truth is it is "optional" even though people will play it like its more mandatory. (Although that part also covered just making a dungeon varied by even making linear routes change sometimes, just so people go "What.. what happened tot he bridge we normally use?. . . I guess we'll go into this cave instead").

So, the side rooms in Sastasha are treasure rooms, that doesn't make anyone do them. And again, letting seedlings hatch in Aurum Vale is a huge benefit that costs very little time (literally several seconds over the entire dungeon if you do it right), and people often still don't do it, even if they're not level-capped. That directly disproves your entire premise.

For that matter, I keep seeing "speed run" strategies in Castrum that actually make the dungeon take longer. Here's a protip: Cid doesn't start moving toward the rear cannons until you take out the guys just past the front cannons. If you bring those guys to the back cannons, the fighting takes less time, but you have to wait longer for Cid, causing the overall completion time to be longer. Yet people still do it constantly. Because people are really not good at nuance or paying attention. Nothing I've ever seen in any MMO makes me think people are going to put any thought into a dungeon after the first few runs of it.

However, none of that even matters, because in a vertical progression MMO like FFXIV, you simply can't provide an evergreen incentive. Treasure? Will be obsolete by the next patch. Experience? Irrelevant for people running roulette at max level. Gil? If that worked as an incentive, tanks wouldn't be the only class that's ever offered preferred status in roulettes. Extra tomestones? Only worth the effort when the current relic weapon step is a tomestone grind. What, specifically, do you propose to offer that is actually going to make optional content permanently worth doing?

[Shougun]

So, the side rooms in Sastasha are treasure rooms, that doesn't make anyone do them. And again, letting seedlings hatch in Aurum Vale is a huge benefit that costs very little time (literally several seconds over the entire dungeon if you do it right), and people often still don't do it, even if they're not level-capped. That directly disproves your entire premise.
However, none of that even matters, because in a vertical progression MMO like FFXIV, you simply can't provide an evergreen incentive. Treasure? Will be obsolete by the next patch. Experience? Irrelevant for people running roulette at max level. Gil? If that worked as an incentive, tanks wouldn't be the only class that's ever offered preferred status in roulettes. Extra tomestones? Only worth the effort when the current relic weapon step is a tomestone grind. What, specifically, do you propose to offer that is actually going to make optional content permanently worth doing?

Most groups I've been in have let the seeds pop, so I'm not sure what you have but it at least in my experience not disprove anything - also unfortunately sometimes not everyone is there for EXP. The one time I had someone refuse to let them pop was because they were capped, and therefore their efficiency was directly hampered by waiting.

As for the second example efficiency is a value of time and averages, if people make the content easier to handle its to increase their efficiency (rather than having to deal with mistakes or discuss anything). I don't find it shocking nor do I mind they've done it, since people like "easy and fast". Speed running (the idea of maximum efficiency) will never die or go anywhere at least until we get computers to play the games for us lol. I'm strictly talking about bare minimum speed running as becoming the most inefficient use of your time (since I feel like this hurts design, and players) and 100% completion as the most efficient (but also suggesting variations and things to mix up that 100% idea, like a "mini" infusion of deep dungeons into regular dungeons - bit like Ferth just added below).

The Satasha treasure room as is not reward enough (yet) but I feel the design comes from a good heart (just needs improved); I've discussed the reward needs to be in context of the people in it. If I'm maxed I don't want some BS exp or 10 gil item (most chests early on are pretty bad lol). I addressed all of this already.

The reward must relate to the player, this is of course natural and you may have skimmed that part of my post (or I edited it while you were making a comment lol). In a simple term I addressed the side objectives via a token that could be transformed into a value you seek, like light, tomes, exp, gil, so that no matter your situation if you joined the content for something you're probably going to get it and maximum efficiency would involve taking maximum advantage of the dungeon. In fact things like lights could be based on the side content entirely, so finishing the dungeon only ensures you obtain your side rewards (this means high level players going back will always make sure new players get the full experience). For glamour, doing the side content would be the drop - so its already baked into just doing it. Of course the values of the reward received need to be considered based on the circumstance (like if you were in a roulette that put you in a low level content) or if you just queued straight up for Satasha unsynced (with some proper UI and simple color/tiers you could display that information well enough for an average understanding of whats what).

[Talraen]

Most groups I've been in have let the seeds pop, so I'm not sure what you have but it does not disprove anything - also not everyone is there for EXP. The one time I had someone refuse to let them pop was because they were capped, and therefore their efficiency was directly hampered by waiting.

We clearly have very different experiences in AV, lol.

As for your second example efficiency is a value of time and averages, if people make the content easier to handle its to increase their efficiency (rather than having to deal with mistakes or discuss anything). I don't find it shocking nor do I mind they've done it. Speed running (the idea of maximum efficiency) will never die or go anywhere. I'm strictly talking about bare minimum speed running as becoming the most inefficient use of your time and 100% completion as the most efficient (but also suggesting variations and things to mix up that 100% idea, like a "mini" infusion of deep dungeons into regular dungeons - bit like Ferth just added below).

The Satasha treasure room as I have said many times is not reward enough, I already discussed the reward needs to be in context of the people in it. If I'm maxed I don't want some BS exp or 10 gil item (most chests early on are pretty bad lol). I addressed all of this already.

The reward must relate to the player, this is obvious and you may have skimmed that part of my post if you didn't notice I had already discussed it. In a simple term I addressed the side objectives via a token that could be transformed into a value you seek, like light, tomes, exp, gil, so that no matter your situation if you joined the content for something you're probably going to get it and maximum efficiency would involve taking maximum advantage of the dungeon. In fact things like lights could be based on the side content entirely, so finishing the dungeon only ensures you obtain your side rewards (this means high level players going back will always make sure new players get the full experience). For glamour, doing the side content would be the drop - so its already baked into just doing it. Of course the values of the reward received need to be considered based on the circumstance (like if you were in a roulette that put you in a low level content) or if you just queued straight up for Satasha unsynced (with some proper UI and simple color/tiers you could display that information well enough for an average understanding of whats what).

Fair enough, I apologize for skimming. These are all good ideas, but I'm left with one overarching question: why make this optional? If it's just a part of the dungeon, the result is the same as what you want; if it's optional, then some people are going to skip it, which will be even more aggravating because they will be objectively wrong to do so. What's the upside?

[Shougun]

We clearly have very different experiences in AV, lol.

That actually makes me feel really bad beacuse the exp from them is huge . . . . I actually frowned when I read it because and I thought "No!" lol. I'm sorry >.<;

The exp, quantity, and ease, it feels great to pop and kill them imo. I like them <3.

Fair enough, I apologize for skimming. These are all good ideas, but I'm left with one overarching question: why make this optional? If it's just a part of the dungeon, the result is the same as what you want; if it's optional, then some people are going to skip it, which will be even more aggravating because they will be objectively wrong to do so. What's the upside?

I think.. its just a mental benefit, I mean this is getting into just how people "feel". So you can tell me how you feel about it and it would be just as well as what I said with no arguments to fight haha. To me its like if you removed RNG entirely from everything. You would know that it takes exactly 50 runs to get your pony. Part of this is great, but the other part reveals the grind so deeply in the game... Where an RNG can make you feel excited and unkown.. there is a nice feeling to RNG until it decides to royally screw you lol.

So I "feel" like that if its optional you will feel better about it, EVEN THOUGH the best reward will be to do it and therefore the standard for normal people will be to do it. Do you feel that's possible? Maybe its just me lol. Its like in those games where you can choose to be the good or bad, and game companies show that most people play the good but just by having a choice (even though for most its pretty linear) it feels different. It's like when you do something for yourself vs when someone tells you to do it, that sense of "my choice" (although sometimes people would fight, you're right and removing all choice would technically remove that lol).

For example, what if you were in Satasha and you're going down the hallway and there is a big hole in a wall you normally have never seen before. . Might be something special deciding to go down that hall rather than knowing the game is basically having a demon wall at your back saying "one way, move forward, nothing to see back here".

The other part of it is less about feelings and just that maps can be neat looking again lol. Right now if we look at our recent map contents they are incredibly basic geometrical shapes (hallways, and arenas). Even though it was linear I remember people talking about how the first dungeon for the Allagan tower was unique layout because you crisscrossed around. To me the story of the area can (has opportunity to be, may not actually lol) be more interesting with shapes that are more free to match their setting.

I don't suggest banishing hallways entirely, but I do feel like with optional content you get more interesting maps (even if the reward for doing them is so strong, and current) that you'd do it anyways.

I do understand what your overarching thought is coming from.. Its just my opinon that even when choices are "false" they can still feel impactful, especially if its because it gets players what they want (issue with talents sometimes is players dont want to make that choice but they have to) but if the reward was something they wanted (because SE would make sure it always was lol) then they'd willingly be like "I'm going to do the extra mile!". So perhaps you tell me if that would feel special to you or not, I understand if it wont - its just feelings (like I dislike hunts but I know some people who love them).

If we scrapped optional content because its just not a general feeling people share, then I would say I'd jump behind you with the mandatory style though. I would also still ask for "variations" like (the Satasha hole is not an option now, but sometimes its just there and changes your path slightly, different monsters, maybe the Key is in that extra room in Satasha, there is a small puzzle (rarely), still mandatory but small changes to mix it up). Like what if in a room that normally some dogs are its a group of enemy adventurers who've gone crazed, so you fight them and pick up an item for a small side quest outside of the dungeon to put their memories to rest (notify next of kin sort of deal).. that would be something fresh I feel.

Tl;dr if options is not enjoyed as much as I like them then I fully support your idea that we examine content in an absolute mandatory method. :P

(btw I've been editing my stuff a bit over time, I was a bit more sharp at first than needed at all - I've been reading my stuff like "why.. that wasn't needed" and editing it down lol).