Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Vidu]

Found this while browsing reddit.
Really wish this could be the case with NA/EU data centers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...p_data_center/

I love how this turns into "please, please try to communicate with them in their language" like half-way through - something that should be common sense in my book...
...and then I remembered all those german and french people on NA/EU datacenters refusing to learn (most of the germans that I ran into who didnt speak english were also unwilling to learn it at all and kept speaking german, leading to me saying everything in german AND english with an apology for the english people around, because it seems so rude >.<) or speak (I've seen sooo many french people who didnt said so much as "hi" but instead went with "salut" - but were magically able to speak english after the third wipe and them wanting an explantion now) english and see nothing wrong with that...

So yeah, the reason this isnt working is pretty much a lack of mutual respect on both sides - and I think we got a very good representation of it in this thread with all those people saying "No, you should not have your farm/clear-option back, because you wont queue up to teach first timers anymore!"
This could work - if we didnt had a lot of people thinking that a first time blind run experience is so, so much more important that its okay to screw everyone else over. If people wouldnt join farm-parties when they still havent cleared this content. Maybe also with veterans helping more and all of us making macros to quickly explain fights (Hey, I just rememberd: I have macros like that for CT ).
But you know why farm-people are so "me, me, me, no time to help, no time to waste"? Because we brought everyone up like this - by telling the new person "YOU are the most important one here! All those people here - they're just here to help you achieve your goal, whatever that may be!" - and thats obviously going to stick.

I doubt we can change that now - specially because this is most likely much more than just a video game issue xD

So I say the best we can do is. Seperate those who want fast kills from those who want to learn and teach - and give us the tools to filter out those who dont respect the wishes of other people. A new person joining a farm party (without asking for permission) is excatly that: disrespectful - and the excuse cant be "But... but... there were no learning parties, if they want to do the fight, they had to!"

[HyoMinPark]

@Vidu: Oh no, that would never work on NA/EU data centers. I'm fully aware of that. XD Because most people only think about their needs and what they want, compared to the group. There is also more lack of respect from NA/EU players usually, because we tend to think "me, me, me" and whine when we don't get our way. Which is how most cultures teach us to behave as we grow up, so it's not surprising. Granted, not all of us are that selfish (and being a little selfish sometimes is just human nature, perfectly normal and acceptable), but probably not compared to those that are exceedingly selfish (just based on the posts I've read on here and on reddit).

So yeah, I am all for giving players the options to filter their groups, be it in Duty Finder or Party Finder or wherever. Even those who haven't cleared can choose to "exclude" those that have (ya know, if they want to be in a group with 7 other people and be completely surprised), so that would make it "fair," since both groups would have options to "exclude."

Honestly, I think it's unrealistic and somewhat ridiculous to expect to PUG a piece of content (let's use A11S as an example) having never cleared it, and just a.) expect the veterans/those who have cleared to help/carry you even though they are there to farm the content for gear/pages, b.) expect them to be okay if you don't want "spoilers" or explanations of mechanics (I have met a surprising amount of people who don't want "spoilers" for fights), or c.) expect to even clear the Duty within the time frame provided.

Party Finder is there for everyone to use: veterans, mentors, newbies, returning players...EVERYONE. But some have got to learn that, if there's no PF for whatever piece of content you want to learn/clear/farm, to take initiative and make one yourself. If you want something done, it's best to do it yourself. And to not force your wants or desires (be it learning/clear/farm) on a group of 7 others that may or may not share them. That's what I think.

[Vidu]

@Vidu: Oh no, that would never work on NA/EU data centers. I'm fully aware of that. XD

Oh, I never doubted that you would be aware of that, Hyomin xD You seem way to reasonable and aware of the problems regarding this matter for that. So my "explantion" was more directed towards anyone who fails to see that japanese people are asking both sides to consider the needs of the other one - and we just dont do that on either side. I dont even want to judge if thats better or worse - its different.
Japanese people have found their way of dealing with it - including for example their special, public blacklist.
And we need to find ours - and I'd consider filter-options the best version, allowing everyone to always use all tools to find a group.
Reading about how people who'd want to exclude people who already have the kill I could think about having these three options:
- Just queue with no filters - always open to everyone
- Queue with "no clear" selected - pairs you up with people who also havent cleared yet, only open as long as you havent got the clear, once you have it, you cant tick it anymore
- Queue with "clear" selected - only open once you've got the clear

...maybe the "no clear"-option would be useless because not enough people would actually be intrested in doing the fight without having the chance of vets sneaking in and teaching them... but thats saying something, doesnt it?

On the matter how PUGable (is that a word? Geez, I love how I can just make up words in german and its totally legit...) content is:
I feel the problem here is the difficulty-gap between content - we're able to just queue and stumble blindly into basically every content except EX-primals and Savage. While EX-primals and Savage really, really require you to know your shit. Having this content in DF sends a wrong message - the message that this is content that can be cleared by 8 random people with various levels of experience. The message that you can just queue for it right after you've unlocked it - and I can understand why a new person who just unlocked their first EX-primal would blindley queue up for it: Thats what they've learned. "Oh, I have unlocked something new, lets do this!" - when thats really not the case and not working. I dont think that we need to encourage the idea that EX-primals and Savage are clearable (another word!) - quite the opposite, actually! Because what happens when a fight cant be cleared by newbies within 60/90 minutes? People start crying for nerfs - "This is to difficult, I cant clear this! Change it! NERF! NERF!"
In this very moment there is a thread on the frontpage, asking for Edda - level 50 boss in PotD - to be changed because people cant handle a very simple mechanic... when the person whos complaining is being told "Well, go with friends/PF when you dont want to risk wasting your time with pugs" the response is "But there are people who have no friends and dont want to socialise!"
So yeah, as soon as something is in DF the expectation is that you can clear it with PUGs - and while thats true for all normal content, for the content thats supposed to be a challenge its not... but the game isnt telling you that

Personal sidenote about how japanese people bet on safer strats and wont solo-tank Zurvan EX for example... or dont tank-LB the soar and just do the mechanic:
As a MT, I like that I get to handle wave canon on my own or that I get to LB - it requires me to pay attention and actually do something for a change (maintanking is pretty dull, easy and boring most of the time...).
Trying if new things could work aswell to handle a mechanic, even if that might be a bit risky, isnt as horrible as those reddit-threads made it seem... I mean, its not as if NA/EU-players would be to stupid to step into the wave canong - they just found a second way to deal with it... and maybe one thats a bit more risky, but also a little more creative...

[Alistaire]

Alternatively they could just add a checkmark to duty finder to only queue with people who have cleared it, that'd solve this problem just as well.

[Vidu]

Alternatively they could just add a checkmark to duty finder to only queue with people who have cleared it, that'd solve this problem just as well.

Thats basically what this is about, yes - I dont think anyone here cares about which interface we use, just that we have this function.

[RokkuEkkusu]

Sorry to revive this thread, but I might as well pitch in my experiences with Raid Finder.

When I used Raid Finder to solo queue as Tank for Sophia Extreme after I cleared it, it was a godsend to be paired with players who also cleared the specified instance.

Due to the fast queue times and other party members being familiar with Sophia Extreme, I managed to get all the weapons from her for 2 characters long before 3.45 came out with the Kinna Weapons. Also managed to get 99 Goddess totems for one character before 3.45 came out as well (the other two characters got the Sophic bird before 3.5 came out.)

As long as a fight requires 2 tanks like most Extreme battles do and enough people can clear it to keep the "Duty Complete" Matching Requirement queues active, Raid Finder can do well in both solo queue and Party Finder settings IMO.

[Belhi]

The fundamental issue is it becomes extremely difficult for people who haven't cleared the encounters to get pug groups as time goes on. I had someone come back to the game shortly before things got shifted to DF and they were in a queue for well over an hour before they gave up trying to just get into Sophia EX for the first time. We ended up having to get enough people together in the FC to clear it for them.

Now you can argue that there is nothing stoping a player who hasn't cleared from forming a practice party in the Party Finder but there really is nothing stopping people who have cleared from doing the same for a farm party and there is generally more people interested in farms than clears.

[bounddreamer]

Or you could help people get clears cause it's not that hard.

Just joined a learning party this morning, in under an hour four people got their clear.

[Mirateski]

Anecdote from the experience of my partner, but relevant, I think.

a9s group. WAR joins, remarks that they know it's a farm, they haven't cleared, but wonders if they'd be willing to have them because they've done research.

Party is understandably a bit unwilling, leaning on the side of "I guess?" but eventually the WAR leaves because they feel they wouldn't fit.

As I'm playing, I notice in PF that the WAR has put up a learning party (my partner's farm was well underway by this point). As I'm gathering I watched the pf fill up, and out of interest kept an eye on them. They had a farm party up that evening.

If I feel up to it and I'm confident, I'll help learning parties. But let me tell you - Sophia EX with a co-tank who doesn't know what they were doing? I am not here for that. If I didn't have the "cleared" option in RF at the time I just plain wouldn't have queued up, to be honest. I set up a learning party for Sephirot EX once and half those who joined had already cleared, and just fancied helping! (We didn't clear, but we saw 90% of the fight that time, and having a healer that knew the fight was a godsend).

A jerk who doesn't wanna help you clear wouldn't anyway - they'd leave, and 9/10 times that'd mean you all have to abandon because replacements are hard to come by in things that take a while to queue anyway. Someone who's been helping folks all day and just wants a break - they have a right to that as well. A NIN with lv58 daggers who never saw a guide doesn't belong in a1s, being honest, so people are gonna wanna queue for that with some sort of restriction on it (and it's probably not even "no bonus", it's just "have half-decent gear and understand what a combo is", especially for a1s)

Having been in thordan farms where no-one was new and two (!) people got hit by the first gaze before he walks off, though, I doubt even RF will save you there.

[HyoMinPark]

Ack. The return of this thread.

To answer the above poster, no, Raid Finder won't save you from those who think they don't have to follow mechanics, whether they have a clear or not. However, if memory serves, those of us who argued for this did more so for the options to select "Duty Complete" while farming, just because we're there to farm, not help others clear. I honestly don't care where Savage and Ex primals are. Just give me the filtering options. Add them to Party Finder or something. I would just like the options if I'm in a mood to farm, and not teach.

I join clear and learning groups all the time. However, when I want to farm, I want to farm. Not spend an hour wiping trying to get people clears that snuck into a farm party. :/

Short response, but not at home atm.