Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[HyoMinPark]

I have done my content with friends are fc members or in pf groups where for the most part people are super cool and chill if it doesn't work out it just doesn't. But lets be honest here if a brand new level one player where to glance at the pf when it has 20 or more parties up how would they get the impression that as far as high level content they would be accepted. Anyone that knows how to read can clearly see the writing on the wall in the pf that basically says as far as we are concerned dont even que up for this content.

I'll be completely honest: I used to look at the PFs that read "FARM PARTY NO BONUS" et cetera, and think: "Wow... how will I ever get clears when people don't want bonuses? Why don't they want bonuses?" And then, a friend of mine said that he would help me get clears for Ex primals, because I had watched his static in SephEx back when it was first released, and I wanted to try it. He tossed a PF up, just me and him, and 6 other people (5 of whom I didn't know, and 1 I asked if he would help me) joined, and helped me get clears. They were under no obligation to join and help; I didn't feel like they owed me anything. And none of the them were expecting anything out of it, really, except maybe bonus tomes and, if they're really lucky, a lucky roll on a whistle.

Now that I am on the other side, I can completely understand the "FARM PARTY NO BONUS" PFs. I understand them completely. Because now, I am a player who would like to farm content, and get the loot I want without having to worry about people that are uncertain when it comes to the fight. If I want to help, I do as others did for me, and join random PFs, not expecting anything, just there to help because, well, why not? I don't have much else to do, so why not help people. Pay it forward.

But those "FARM PARTY NO BONUS" aren't there for the sole reason of excluding new people based on some massive ego of World First raiders. They're there so that people can farm content smoothly, and get what they want without being expected to teach people.

People are really over exaggerating the amount of learning parties that are up at any given time on average there are way less learning parties than there are farm parties.

Okay, so I guess the pictures I posted--the screenshots I posted--of PF on my Data Center is just an exaggeration? No, it's not. That's just a normal weekday Party Finder on Aether. There's always all sorts of stuff in there, from farms to clears to learning to Wonderous Tails to static recruitments. On weekends, it's even more busy. I guess your Data Center must be different, but don't use it as a way to generalize the rest.

The very next day after zur came out it was already parties saying to know the fight , actually some the very same day.

Is there a time frame where people aren't allowed to post farm PFs for new content or something? Do we have to wait two months before we can? No. If people clear on Day 1 and want to start farming, they have every right to do so. Same thing if people want to farm 3 patches after the content is released. They have that right.

And the very same people on here that are sayin they want that filter back for two months are also claiming that people just want a carry.

Because every person in this game wants to work hard to achieve goals, and not have content nerfed/rewards handed to them so that they don't have to do anything more than press 1-2-3? There are several people that just want others to carry them. I've encountered them, and I'm sure the other posters, and probably you, have encountered them as well. Regardless of content. Whether or not you noticed, that's another question. But it's easy to spot lazy people in Ex primals and Savage.

I dont know about other people but I main tanks or healers and nobody is carrying me through any content. So that very accusation that people just need these great amazing vet players to clear content or they are doom is the same attitude thats in the pf.

I'm sure many people main different jobs across the entire Trinity. I main BRD. But I also enjoy AST, WHM, and DRK. I also like DoL and DoH classes. And people ARE SAYING IN THIS THREAD THAT IT IS THE JOB OF MENTORS AND VETERANS TO CATER TO NEW PLAYERS. There are several posts that say that. Perhaps not so directly, but they still mean the same thing.

People just need slots to fill up doesn't matter if you are new are vet whatever people just need access to content, the way most of the people in here would have it is the only access someone who doesnt know a fight is to make a learning party and thats it. But yet they are totally fine with having the rf locked up and the party finder locked up for themselves but everyone else must have a single option. Well SE has spoken and just like the nerfed the raids, nerfed all kinds of things they also made these primals more accessible I didnt say made it easier to clear because Im sure that it didnt.

People do have access to content. The only thing that bars them from it, aside from things like minimum required ilvl or class/job level, is themselves. If they sit there and think that the Raid Finder is "locked up" and that Party Finder is "locked up," and refuse to take initiative by making their own clear/learning party, or finding friends from their FC or LS to help, that is on them. Not raiders. Not bird farmers. Not the system.

And the entire concept of "nerfing" content is to make it easier because people think it's too hard. When really, most the time, they just want to be able to semi-AFK during the fight while they watch Netflix or whatever. There are extremely lazy people in this world, and those are usually the ones demanding nerfs for content that doesn't need it. Most content outside of Ex primals and Savage is laughably easy; it's disappointing. Any content that was challenging, people complained until the devs did something. A good example of this is the Demon Wall boss in Amdapor Keep. It used to have bees as a mechanic, that you had to kill, or else get final stung, while also dodging the simple floor AOEs. You know, just like you have to kill the bees in 'Sunken Temple or Neverreap before they Final Sting the tank while avoiding the pretty orange circles on the ground. But people complained until they removed the bees, because it was "too hard, and essentially made the boss a joke, for undergearred and overgearred players. Personally, I'd like to see the bees return.

But, we gotta satisfy those that don't want to put forth more than a teeny bit of effort, if any at all. The bees that were in Amdapor Keep are the same as the bees that spawn during the first boss in Sunken Temple. An extremely simple mechanic to deal with: kill bees, then go back to smacking the boss. And, the thing with Amdapor Keep, is most people recommended LB-ing the bees, or, if DPS was high, just burning the Demon Wall and ignoring them. But, nope. Too hard. Pls nerf.

But at this point when everything has been in your favor then why get upset when now the content is open for everyone, we both no its not gona change just because this thread is here. So why not just get over it , its two months, I will be fully aware that all new raids and primal in sb will be going right into rf. Im ok with that I dont wana get rid of rf even tho I prefer duty finder, but I know it has its purpose so if people can be ok with knowing if they are slow to learn they will be excluded . Then why cant the opposition be ok with content thats already been out there now being more accessible to the masses?

The content was always open. Just because it was in Raid Finder and not Duty Finder doesn't mean that the content was closed off or restricted. The only HARD requirements for queuing into said content would be: to be level 60 and meet the minimum ilvl. Other requirements don't have anything to deal with queuing into the content. Skill is what is required for clears. Patience is what is required for teaching. And determination is what is required for farms with terrible drop rates, and suffering your own terrible, single digit loot rolls.

People are advocating for a permanent change, for a permanent removal of Raid Finder, and the options to filter the player base. Because they're under some misconception that there's a great divide between new players/casuals and people that raid/farm primals, or that new people deserve to have the chance to clear, and Duty Finder is the solution. Yes, they deserve a chance to clear. But primal farmers deserve a chance to farm.

And the developers do read these forums, and do consider some of the things posted here. They deserve to hear the voices from both sides. You want to post your thoughts, well so do we. And that's why we keep responding. And if we're supposed to "get over it," why don't you also "get over" the fact that your views are skewed by negative personal experiences and broad generalizations, and in NO WAY reflect the MAJORITY of new players. You say that you don't think new people need to have their hands held or whatever, but you continue to post about how hard it was for you to do certain content, how hard it is for newbies to find opportunities to do content, and how "restricted" and "controlled" Party Finder/Raid Finder/Duty Finder is.

The only thing holding these people back are themselves. The only restrictions are the ones people place on themselves. Reading your comments, I feel like you're under the impression that new people look at PF and just throw their hands up in the air: "Woe is me! Look at these farm parties in PF! I don't see a single clear/learning party in here! What do I do?! I'm never going to get to clear this content! The devs need to make it more accessible by moving it from RF/PF to DF, because that makes everything better! That gives us, the new/casual player base control over this content, and takes it away from the raiders!"

Spoiler alert: neither group ever had any "control" over any of the Finders in this game.

Inb4 you say my views don't speak for the majority, I already know that, and I never said that they did.

[DaikiKiyoshi]

Sorry friend but let's face it you can have a full group of people who "cleared" be 10x worse that that one guy desperate for a clear who probably would have been your top dps if they joined as such.
What I'm trying to say is that even with content in raid finder, there's no real chance of that group being legit even with a whole team of "farmers". it really makes no difference in the end to be honest. You either get a good group or a poo poo storm. Blocking people who haven't cleared with rf BARELY mitigates this.

As someone who has used RF to farm Ex trials I beg to differ. The difference is astounding. Granted even when I had it set to Duty Complete I still had the occasional party that failed miserably but they were 1 off flukes. I had way more smooth 1 shot clears on duty complete than I ever got by using Duty Incomplete or even the Party Finder. I got the vast majority of my Soph Ex clears from Raid Finder set to Duty Complete. Blocking people who had not cleared made a huge difference. Similarly my runs set to Duty Incomplete were vastly more tolerable and friendly than normal because everyone who joined went in with the understanding that they may well spend 90 minutes wiping and never see phase 3 and they were fine with that. So yes you always have the chance to get those fluke parties of people who don't know what they are doing but being able to filter people according to their goals is helpful to everyone. The ONLY people this system doesn't benefit is trolls and people looking for carries.

[Vidu]

I'm really sorry, I cant read all of this

I really cant. To much text, not enough structure, sense or order. But I feel, I really need to point out that "having access"-thing to you again:

RF was always open to everyone. Everyone was able to queue.
And if people who are wanting to clear have to wait longer the reason for that is that not enough people want to learn this content right now (and are queuing for it).
People who are queuing with the clear-option at the same time are not blocking their access to the content. They are simply queueing for something else - and thats okay!
(Really by this logic everyone who isnt queueing for Sastasha NM right now is blocking access to it for players who just started the game!)

You know why Rf "wasnt working" for those who wanted to get their kills? Not because of us mean, mean farmers and veterans who didnt wanted to help - but because most people who want to learn those fights wont do it in RF, just as they didnt do in DF. They know its pointless - 60 minutes arent enough for firsttimers to learn the whole fight, so why should they waste time on that? Specially when they want to practise later phases but RF/DF is almost guraanted to pair you up with someone who is completly new, putting the whole group - including those who made it to add-phase, final phase and even that vet, who wanted to help and already has their bird - back to square one.
I would advise any person who wants to get their clear to peak into DF/RF, leave after 15 minutes when they've gotten an idea of the first phase so they're less anxious about going in again - and then make a learning party.

The reason RF "wasnt working" for those who wanted to clear is the absence of people who wanted to clear aswell - it is not the absence of farm-people who wanted to get their fast kills in.
And that actually goes both ways - before they moved Sophia into DF I tried to queue up for a farm, just to see if it would still work. Estimated time: over 30 minutes. I decided I wouldnt wait that long, so I cnat tell you how long it would have took me to get in. But who do I blame for that now? All those filthy people who already have their birds and dont queue up anymore?

Your last sentence ("If you really think the rf works for new people are those whom havent cleared make an alt and just let your computer sit until the que pops for you or even one person joins the group.") even shows a general missunderstanding of the RF. I dont need to make a new character to have access to the "not-cleared"-queue. Clearing content doesnt immidiatly kick me out of that - I do, when I wish so, by selecting that option. If I feel like teaching, or maybe even practising a bit more myself, I can always go back into that queue.

RFs clear-option was opening up two things:
- a second lane for everyone who wanted to farm
- a method to make sure everyone in your PF-made-farm-party had the clear - if not, it wouldnt let you queue and you were able to sort that out before going in (-> seeing the bonus-message without a warning in a farm-group often leads to people leaving at the spot - and they have every right to do so. Sneaking into farm-parties is NOT cool - and it gets less cool when you dont even ask if its okay. On the other hand I have seen people in farm-parties more welcoming to help someone if they just did one thing: Spoke up before the bonus appeared. Even speaking up when we werent able to queue in, which is already damn fucking late, can do the trick.)

I want both those things back - and even if I dont get them back for HW-primals, I'd like to express here that I would be very pleased to see the upcoming SB-EX-primals be kept in RF (or any two-queue-system, really - again, dont care about the interface, just the function) until 5.0 really hits. And by really hits I mean: When we can indeed unsych those primals and no one would want to do them as they are anymore.
The two months you're talking about are two months that we're still playing. And I'm pretty sure everyone would like to spend them in the way they prefer and there is nothing wrong with that - however, those who would have prefered spending them in queue for "farm"-parties, cant do that anymore, while nothing or little has changed for those who just want to wipe in phase 1. And then hopefully go and make their learning party because anything else would be insane...

[bswpayton]

So I think the bigger question is , for everyone that still thinks this is a horrible thing , why do you think that devs decided to make this change? What reason do you think that the devs possibly could of had in mind to remove these out of raid finder to put them in df with the other old primals?

[ReplicaX]

So I think the bigger question is , for everyone that still thinks this is a horrible thing , why do you think that devs decided to make this change? What reason do you think that the devs possibly could of had in mind to remove these out of raid finder to put them in df with the other old primals?

Content has been out for an extended period of time, the exception being Zurvan. In preparation for SB Raids & EX is the only reason I see them doing it, unless as stated they have some in-house timetable for content.

[Yeol]

So I think the bigger question is , for everyone that still thinks this is a horrible thing , why do you think that devs decided to make this change? What reason do you think that the devs possibly could of had in mind to remove these out of raid finder to put them in df with the other old primals?

Apparently, clear rates increase when such content is added to DF after it got echo. It is like the last hope for people who want to down it before 4.0 hits.

I've noticed that there are less rage quitters in DF. Especially if the queue took a long time. People tend to stay till the timer ends. With PF people can easily leave and join another party.
Someone usually ask if people know what to do and link a guid video. Give instruction and pull.

[bswpayton]

Apparently, clear rates increase when such content is added to DF after it got echo. It is like the last hope for people who want to down it before 4.0 hits.

I've noticed that there are less rage quitters in DF. Especially if the queue took a long time. People tend to stay till the timer ends. With PF people can easily leave and join another party.
Someone usually ask if people know what to do and link a guid video. Give instruction and pull.

Thank you last two posters you just pretty much said maybe in a nicer way what ive been saying this whole time but yet the people in this thread still want accept the idea that it is a last stitch attempt to make things easier for everyone.

[Vidu]

So I think the bigger question is , for everyone that still thinks this is a horrible thing , why do you think that devs decided to make this change? What reason do you think that the devs possibly could of had in mind to remove these out of raid finder to put them in df with the other old primals?

I know why they've made this change - it is, indeed, to favour those who are late to the party by telling everyone who would like to do those primals in DF "Either you deal with teaching those people or you cant do this content [in DF]"
I know and understand their reason behind this - infact, I'm pretty sure we all do. But obviously not all of us agree on this, so its perfectly legit to speak up and tell the devs "Hey, listen, there are people who would like you to do it differently!". Thats the point of making suggestions in a forum. Dont you think those people who want female gear unlocked for males (or at least the equival amount of glamour options for males) know why thats not the case yet?
Do you really think everyone here, who would like to keep a clear-only-queue is to stupid to understand that SE is throwing those who cant be bothered to make a learning party a huge bone? And not only are they throwing this bone by taking it away from the farm-people, no, they're throwing this bone with the assumption that now more experienced people will queue to help, because they have no other option anymore.

This is not "until now the queue was only open for farm-people and now its open for new people aswell" - this is "we remove the farm-queue, so people who want to farm either give up on DF or are forced to help".
Both groups had queues until now. Now there is no queue for farm-people anymore. And if those people dont voice their intrest to keep a farm-queue because they want to do something for the next two months until there is new content, nothing will change because it will appear as if there is no intrest in that to begin with - when there is.

Thank you last two posters you just pretty much said maybe in a nicer way what ive been saying this whole time but yet the people in this thread still want accept the idea that it is a last stitch attempt to make things easier for everyone.

How can you say its easier for everyone now? It clearly is not easier for anyone who wants to farm the content... And people ARE still farming this content. You complained about how there are only farm-parties in PF (even when you've been shown that thats not the case), so there is clearly a huge intrest in farming this content. Yet this change made it more difficult for that group of people...

[Moomba33]

I'm wondering if there's a data center difference issue here. In my experience RF was useless for solo queue for every Ex fight except Sophia Ex and her queues died too in 3.5. This is from queuing on evenings and weekends as a dps or healer on the Primal Data Center.
And yes I was queuing Duty Complete.

The functionality was nice in theory but not useful if the queue never pops. It would be helpful if that functionality was added to PF to stop people from sneaking into farms.

[ReplicaX]

How can you say its easier for everyone now? It clearly is not easier for anyone who wants to farm the content... And people ARE still farming this content. You complained about how there are only farm-parties in PF (even when you've been shown that thats not the case), so there is clearly a huge intrest in farming this content. Yet this change made it more difficult for that group of people...

If it is possible system wise, I believe what Moomba states below is a win-win. Especially now having cross-PF implemented. It doesn't hurt to have multiple options as long as they are viable. Especially if SE wants to set timetables moving content out of RF into DF.

I'm wondering if there's a data center difference issue here. In my experience RF was useless for solo queue for every Ex fight except Sophia Ex and her queues died too in 3.5. This is from queuing on evenings and weekends as a dps or healer on the Primal Data Center.
And yes I was queuing Duty Complete.

The functionality was nice in theory but not useful if the queue never pops. It would be helpful if that functionality was added to PF to stop people from sneaking into farms.