Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Hayward]

All of these Gartrs calling for EX raids to be put back in Raid Finder can just look in the mirror if they need to blame someone. You made the raid population as small as it is because you were too good to lower yourself to showing new players how things are done. Now you're complaining because new players don't know what to do in these raids?

[Vidu]

All of these Gartrs calling for EX raids to be put back in Raid Finder can just look in the mirror if they need to blame someone. You made the raid population as small as it is because you were too good to lower yourself to showing new players how things are done. Now you're complaining because new players don't know what to do in these raids?

Have you read anything in this thread, including your own statment? According to you its someones absolute duty to teach everyone and their mother how to do EX-primals once they got their clear - god forbid they'd like to their freetime in a game focussing on their own progression and doing something they want to do.

No one here is complaining that new people dont know what to do in these raids. Thats okay and a lot of people here are open to teach - myself included.
But! not all the time. I'm still the Warrior of Light - not the Teacher of Newbies.
I have explained it before, but the short version for you again: Newbies fun, time and enjoyment arent more important than mine. Yet you make it sound as if the first objective in this game is to help new people through their content - but is that really what we are playing this game for? Is that what you are playing this game for?
I cant answer the second question, but I'm sure I can answer the first one with: No. People are playing this game for different reasons. Hell, people are even doing EX-primals for different reasons! (Seriously, I have farmed all HW-EX-primals for the birds - while two friends of mine couldnt care less about them)

Some just want to "see the fight" - perfect, DF does that for them!
Some want to get one kill and be done with it - yeah, DF gets a little tricky here...
Some want/need to gear up and get weapons - using DF for that, the relic might be the faster and easier option...
Some want their bird/rare drop/music/TT-card - dont even go NEAR DF

Some might be open to teach - and yes, they can use DF, but I'll tell you something: 60 minutes is a pretty tight timelimit when you have a bunch of people who are seeing that fight for the first time. Two nights ago I joined a Sophia learning party with 6 new people, some of them firsttimers, some hadnt seen a guide (or had seen a guide but werent able to understand it - guide in english, person only spoke german). Now, Sophia EX is one of the easier primals, I'd say. It still took us over 90 minutes to kill her - how is that possible, you ask? We had to re-enter. During our first time in there we got her down to 20% or so - we managed to see all mechanics (obviously we didnt dealt with them perfectly), but didnt got the clear. So we went in again and killed her with 25 minutes on the clock left.
What would have happend in DF? After they'd seen all mechanics we would have had to leave - and the next time one of those people would have went in... how do you think that would go?

Right now, DF is - at least for the harder primals - pretty useless when it comes to getting clears at all. So... great, DF can be used for to wipe in the first phase of a primal and nothing else!
And you know what? I've done my fair share of that when I was learning those fights and whenever I feel like going back to teach them - but its not my "job" to do that. I'm playing a game, just like the person who is new. My desire to get that bird/weapon/whatever isnt less important than their desire to get the kill.
And guess what - when the primals are released everyone is new, they dont even have guides - and yet they manage to kill them without the help of someone who has done that primal 50 times already. Amazing that such a thing is possible, isnt it? But yet here you are, saying that the problem is that people, who have killed something and would like to move on farming, dont want to be hold back by new people all the time. That the problem is that we dont take them by their little paws and walk them through every EX-primal and savage. That newbies cant kill that stuff unless someone holds their hand - thats both insulting towards new people (who cant do anything on their own) and older people (who are arrogant assholes because they'd like to spend their time in a game in a way they enjoy).

Some people have real life stuff to take care of, so chances are they're unable to get on when the patch drops. If anything, you should be happy for new people. Explain the fight to them and just be patient. It's not like everyone else was any better when all of that first dropped. Sure, they had to learn the hard way, and there were no videos to watch. But, isn't our job to help teach other players how things go? As a mentor, I take great pride in helping other players, whether they be new adventurers, returners, or even other mentors themselves. While I'm not much of an Extreme runner or raider myself, I still will teach new people in the duty how to do mechanics.

I am happy about new people. I am patient and I'm trying to teach as often as I can. But you're asking me to sacrfice my own goals completly with that statment. And thats not right - I'm playing a game, this is not a job. So no, our job is not to help new people in a video game - our job is being a nurse, teacher, cashier, student, ballet dancer or whatever it is you do for a living. This is our hobby (except you're a goldfarmer, I guess), this is everyones freetime and they should be able to spend it as they please (within limits ofc - but prefering to farm a fight over teaching it is well within those limits).
If I want to achieve something in this game and I have limited freetime because of my real life, I'd like to focus on that - without being called an elitist [insert whatever word seems fitting].

Its very nice of you to but the intrest of other people before your own - but not everyone has to do that. I like teaching and helping aswell and when I have the time and nerves to wipe for hours, I'll do that. But that doesnt meant that I have to discard everything I'd like to do for myself.

The ability to solo queue for farming didn't exist before RF, and it doesn't have to. It is an anomaly that was a byproduct in attempt to help the dry servers.

Why not? Its very convenient to queue for those EX-primals (not only solo, but also with any number of people that isnt a full party) - why should that be reserved for those who just want to get a gilmpse of the fight? Why should the very convenient tool that the DF is become useless once you're good enough to clear that fight? People used it with great joy for Sophia - it was wonderful! Friend and I could queue up for a few runs, when we would have never joined a committed farm party. Farming is a legit way to play that content - why not give us easier matchmaking tools?

[bswpayton]

Have you read anything in this thread, including your own statment? According to you its someones absolute duty to teach everyone and their mother how to

The thing is Vidu what the op is currently asking on his threat is to put old outdated content back in the rf thats exclusive with only two months to go before they become unsync. So I understand the argument for having them in rf at the start but once these things have been out for months and months there is no need for them to be locked in rf for one which nobody even uses. I dont like rf, I used pf if I wana clear rf was dead on site as soon as cross party finder came out, so for new stuff sure lets continue to put them in rf. But with all this content being old there is no reason to still have them in rf. Unless Im missing something here Im not following how people are saying these old primals should still be in rf with only two months to go before unsnyc land for everyone

[Vidu]

The thing is Vidu what the op is currently asking on his threat is to put old outdated content back in the rf

What the OP actually wants its the means to queue for this content while selecting a "everyone I'm queueing with has cleared this"-option. This content being out for months doesnt magically make it so easy that it can be pugged with newbies if you want to farm it. The reason to have it in RF (or in DF, with that cleared-option) is that thats making it possible to actually farm that content without having to make a party in PF and commit to that.
And even IF you make a farm-party the cleared-option was pretty helpful to make sure everyone who joined your party had cleared this content - without having to load in, see the bonus-message and watch your party fall apart because tehy feel betrayed by seing bonus in a farm.
Extreme primals are still a challenge - as they should be! - even with them being a few months old. Mechanics dont disappear, not everything can be skipped, this content still isnt faceroll easy. Thordan EX, despite being a year old or so, hasnt gotten DF-first-timer.going-in-blind-but-getting-the-kill-within-30minutes-easy yet.

The counter-argument for this cant be "but poor newbies cant have any fun this way!" because they shouldnt have fun at the cost of other peoples (those who'd still like to farm the content in DF/RF) fun - which is what happens right now though.

I mean, now you've basically screwed everyone except the people who only wnat to see phase 1, wipe for an hour and then never touch that content again because they know now that its not the fluffy cakewalk they want - people who would like to farm and were able to use the RF/DF before, cant do that anymore.

[Talraen]

The counter-argument for this cant be "but poor newbies cant have any fun this way!" because they shouldnt have fun at the cost of other peoples (those who'd still like to farm the content in DF/RF) fun - which is what happens right now though.

"Newbies shouldn't have fun at the cost of other people's fun." Thus, we can conclude that newbies are having fun queuing in duty finder. Whereas you have fun farming. So farmers should have fun at the cost of other people's (newbies) fun. Yes, I think we can in fact call this hypocritical!

[Vidu]

"Newbies shouldn't have fun at the cost of other people's fun." Thus, we can conclude that newbies are having fun queuing in duty finder. Whereas you have fun farming. So farmers should have fun at the cost of other people's (newbies) fun. Yes, I think we can in fact call this hypocritical!

Nope - as a farmer I'm not having fun at the cost of other peoples fun just because I dont want to help them right now.
Newbies can still have fun and queue for their stuff - if there are enough people who share their version of fun (as in: learning the fight), good for them! If there are not - to bad.
Same applies to people who want to farm the content - if they queue up and enough people have the same goal, good for them! If there arent enough people - to bad.

But if you put a newbie and a farmer into a party, the newbie will get what they want out of this: Practise the fight, maybe even see later phases because they're now having an experienced person at their side (even if they wont explain, thats a huge benefit since that person knows what they're doing and wont wipe them). The farmer, however will not get what they want: If they get a kill at all, it will take much longer than it should.
So yes, the newbie had their fun there. The farmer didnt.

You are, again, focussed on the experience of the newbie who seem to need the help of the farmer so bad that it will ruin their experience if they dont get it.
My absence of a fight doesnt ruin the experience of a new person - their presence in a farm-group does ruin the experience for the people who want to farm.
If you want to conclude that someone who doesnt want to queue up for "learning" is ruining the fun for people who want to learn the fight, anyone who doesnt queue up for the EX-primals right now is runing the fun of those who do.

So... I hope you are in queue for every content in the game right now because if you're not you're ruining the fun of everyone who tries to get into Sastasha NM, Titan HM, Zurvan EX and Frontlines.

I am not surprised. This community always wanting put walls.

I have a better idea. Let's not let any new player even start the game. You know ,those scrubs don't deserve play. Only for veterans. And no one more.

/sarcasm.

No one here is saying that new people shouldnt play the game or shouldnt learn those fights *sigh*
We're simply saying that those who have learend the fights should be able to follow their own goals aswell by using the DF.
I shouldnt have to put new peoples intrests infront of my own all the time - which is excatly what the DF is asking of me right now, because I cant queue with people who share my goal of clearing/farming the fight anymore.

PF allows you to set up both learning and farming parties - why should DF not allow you to do the same? Because its unfair to new people not being paired up with those who dont even want to be there to teach and help anymore?

[Talraen]

Nope - as a farmer I'm not having fun at the cost of other peoples fun just because I dont want to help them right now.
Newbies can still have fun and queue for their stuff - if there are enough people who share their version of fun (as in: learning the fight), good for them! If there are not - to bad.
Same applies to people who want to farm the content - if they queue up and enough people have the same goal, good for them! If there arent enough people - to bad.

That's how the system works right now, with duty finder and party finder as the only options. If you add the raid finder with a "only people who have cleared this content" option, there will be some people (not you) who would have used the duty finder but will instead use the option, thus reducing the pool of good players available to help new players. Thus there will be less "people who share their version of fun (as in: learning the fight)" queuing.

Also the more I read in this thread, the more I wonder - does anyone actually farm in the RF? Isn't the point of farming to do the content over and over, which is much more suited to the party finder? Are we even arguing about things that actually happen (on either side of the debate)?

[bswpayton]

What the OP actually wants its the means to queue for this content while selecting a "everyone I'm queueing with has cleared this"-option. This content being out for months doesnt magically make it so easy that it can be pugged with newbies if you want to farm it.

But have you farmers not have yals time, I mean seriously you have had months on up to a year to farm to your hearts desire to do content with no bonuses. The option to leave new players or first timers out for months on in , because we both know that in two months no sync runs will happen on this content. So is it really to much to ask , for those whom are still tryin to clear content to have better access to it after all this time. This seems very one sided here things have gone the way of the rf for the whole time frame of its existence, now here it is right before the expansion when they are nerfing alex, uncapping the 24mans.

They are doing everything to make things easier for everyone, but yet people what the exclusiveness of the raid finder to continue. Because the thing about it is that those whom want their birds will get them regardless in two months, but how much harder will it be for someone to get a sync clear of a run once it goes unsync will it be. Lets be real here bird farms will continue on much more frequently than any sync runs of unsyncable content. So while I know that people can slow down progress I know from my own personal experience every primal I ever cleared was in df before I started using pf, so I dont think well I know not all of them are just wipe fest, so at this point the time is just simply up for what the op wants.

[Vidu]

But have you farmers not have yals time, I mean seriously you have had months on up to a year to farm to your hearts desire to do content with no bonuses.

Intresting - you're saying right now "Oh, to bad you wanted to farm this content, you're to late for that now!"
For the sake of people who might have been to late to get there first clears when everyone was doing/learning the content...?

I might have had real life reasons not to farm the content when it first came out (personally, with Zurvan I actually had), just as much as a person could have had personal reasons not to join learning parties when the content first came out. So right now, the system is telling the farmer "yep, you're to late to the party now", while the new person gets a VIP-ticket...

Also the more I read in this thread, the more I wonder - does anyone actually farm in the RF? Isn't the point of farming to do the content over and over, which is much more suited to the party finder? Are we even arguing about things that actually happen (on either side of the debate)?

I believe I have answered this already, but since we're all writing novels here, I'll repeat it: Yes, it actually happend. Sophia was the godess (pun intended) of this feature when they released that fight - specially because the fight required the standard set-up with two tanks (main reason it didnt worked aswell for Zurvan was that you only need one tank there, so there was the huge benefit of getting a 5th dps in when doing it with a full party). Me and some friends used that feature to get some fast clears in - and seeing how we had queuetimes below 5 minutes, I reckon a lot of other people did the same. While the point of farming is to do the content over and over again it only requires you to do that with people who know what they're doing - not necessarly with the same group. So, when farming only requires you to have 7 other people there who know what they're doing - why not have those 7 people randomly come from DF? (Yes, yes, we can argue that having the kill doesnt mean you know the fight - but it certainly increases the chance to get paired up with people who know the fight when everyone has the clear - during the farmruns my friend and I did in Sophia, using the RF, we saw like 4 wipes and one disband or so? Not remotly close to what I dealt with in Garuda EX when I tried to farm that in DF back in the old days...)
Queueing up for content like that is a lot more flexible than setting up a PF or joining a group.
Ask yourself why you dont make a PF-group everytime you want to do expert.