Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Vidu]

Whether or not people want to use the party finder in its present form is irrelevant. If it included the cleared-only option, there would be no compelling reason to use the raid finder anymore which would lead to more interest in using the party finder.

I am not so sure about that - I would still be intrested in using the RF to be matched up with other people who have cleared the content already. And let me explain why: PF-Farm parties require a certain commitment. It is ofc expected that you're staying for several runs or that you stay even after you've got what you were looking for - and thats fair, a farm-party cant be a farm-party when they have to look for new people after every kill.
RF is only asking me to commit to one run at a time. If I have half an hour on my hand, thats not enought to join a farm-party - it is however enough to get one, maybe two kills in RF! Using the queue instead of the partyfinder is not only more convenient, its also giving you more control over how long you want to go on, without screwing other people over.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

One reason I like the Raid Finder is the (assumed) higher expectations of it. Humor me if you will:

In truth, Goblin server's PF - before cross server - went barely used. Why? Because aside from new content on or around patch day, most players simply stuck to linkshells and small groups of friends and acquaintances in order to be able to consistently clear anything. Reasons for this were largely that many players simply dragged their feet to catch up or stay up because of the progression formula in game, many were not up to par skill-wise, or up to even learn, and by the time those who did want to learn began to make PFs eagerly searching for help clearing content, those who were capable had already run it to death by then. Then there are the people that try to slip into farms or the like, and just simply aren't ready. This made the linkshells and cliques almost a necessity, but unfortunately, if you weren't in, you were out. And I've been on both sides of that. It's not fun either way.

The Raid Finder seemed like a great tool for people with busy schedules, or people who might not know many other endgame players, but at least were willing to put forth the serious effort to clear content. Unlike the Duty Finder where people often queue up expecting the worst (and thus offer their worst), the Raid Finder produced a pool of more like-minded, motivated players who'd be willing to be patient and put in the time and effort to learn or clear content. Mileage varies of course.

[Rongway]

PF-Farm parties require a certain commitment.

RF is only asking me to commit to one run at a time.

That's a fair point about the social constructs, but the PF includes the ability to specify, "One run only," or "One run, maybe more if time allows," at which point your social obligations are essentially the same as in a random party.

The perceived convenience of using the DF/RF over the PF, while being more than 0, is, surely overemphasized.

Duty Finder
1. Select duty.
2. Queue.
3. Wait for party to fill.
4. Confirm participation.


Raid Finder
1. Select duty.
2. Select clear/noclear preference.
3. Queue.
4. Wait for party to fill.
5. Confirm participation.


Party Finder, leader
1. Select duty.
x. Set item level (the default is no different from using DF/RF)
x. Set party composition (the default is no different from using DF/RF)
2. Comment. (≡ RF step 2)
3. Post listing. (≡ RF step 3)
4. Wait for party to fill.
5. Queue.
6. Confirm participation


Party Finder, joiner
1. Select duty.
2. Join party.
3. Wait for party to fill.
4. Confirm participation.

(I decline to consider the ready check process, as the "Confirm participation" step easily subsumes the function of a ready check; anyone who is not ready can simply decline the pop -- this is analogous to a random person in DF/RF declining a pop.)


And if we remove RF.2, RF is exactly a DF. Then if we move the clear enforcement to PF, this changes the Party Finder leader's task flow to

Party Finder, leader
1. Select duty.
2a. Select clear/noclear preference.
2b. Comment.
3. Post listing.
4. Wait for party to fill.
5. Queue.
6. Confirm participation

Or if we add a bonus indicator to the DF,

Party Finder, leader
1. Select duty.
2. Comment.
3. Post listing.
4. Wait for party to fill.
5a. Check for bonus indicator
5b. Queue.
6. Confirm participation.

(Here, I decline to consider the joiners ability to see the bonus indicator or not, as it has no effect on the ultimate outcome -- if the party leader queues anyway, the rest of the party will see the bonus message on entry and people might quit, which makes it no different than using the DF.)


The PF joiner task flow would still be the same, and it is equivalent to the DF flow. Interactions like clarification of expectations, experience levels, and prefered strategies, or the lack of such communication resulting in unpleasant surprises, is independent of which interface is used. However, if you use the PF, you have the option of clarifying these things before committing to a 30 minute penalty if things go unexpectedly.

[Dzian]

Everything you've said completely ignores what a few people are saying about 1 person who wants to queue a duty with the cleared only option and not join a party finder group. like the guy abouve you said about raid finder groups have no commitment you can be done after a single run if you get your drop your not expected to stay and farm... several run or commit hours of time.

You want to remove what you called rf2 in your list. (select cleared or not cleared preference) but that's exactly the option people want... whether its in the duty finder or raid finder isn't really important I guess as long as that option is there somewhere... where it seems you want to make it only available to full premade parties. and not the rest of the player base who might not want to join a full premade party for numerous reasons.

if you do that all you succeed in doing is making the duty finder the total mess it was before they added the raid finder. in that people without full parties simply wouldn't queue at all to do the content because the chance of success was non existant.
ever try and duty finder thordan ex before the raid finder was added? or seph ex? or coil back in ARR? next to impossible
which is ultimately why they added the raid finder in the first place. so you're creating a problem that had already been solved by adding the raid finder

[Vidu]

That's a fair point about the social constructs, but the PF includes the ability to specify, "One run only," or "One run, maybe more if time allows," at which point your social obligations are essentially the same as in a random party.

The perceived convenience of using the DF/RF over the PF, while being more than 0, is, surely overemphasized.

Using this logic, we could just remove DF all together and replace it with PF, couldnt we? Specially now that we're having Cross-World-PF - that still shouldnt be an option, because they do work differently.
Seriously, all we "need" (need as in "its really nice to have that") is to narrow down our queue by selecting cleared/not cleared. If that happens in DF or RF, I dont care - they're basically the same. They are, however, very different from PF.

[KDSilver]

I dont think it should go back as people that looking to clear arent able to get in at all as most people dont do uncomplete anymore, adding it to duty finder helps everyone to have chance to clear and people that are cleared can help them clear as well

Read the messages on this topic please.

[OMGAFLYINGPENGUIN]

-

I think you fail to see the point, no one here thinks they are of higher social standing than the other - to be fair everyone who have cleared trials or savage run have grinded equal if not more hours into the fight than each other. Someone made a valid point (quoted below)

Ask yourself: Why isn't everyone a mentor? Answer should come to you as: Not everyone wants to teach. RF gives an option to separate people out. God forbid people play the game without having to teach someone new *every time*.

and I think it makes alot of sense, while I feel that everyone deserves a chance to learn and not be ostracised for being new it gets very tiring when I only have so few hours a day to play but each run I encounter is a fight where I need to start from ground zero. And this was literally my experience, I am by no means a elitist, do not go about dictating how people should play nor have an ego that lets me feel that I'm above everyone else, I craft for free and join PF whenever I can. Yesterday, when running one of the ex trials, and instead of maybe getting 5-6 clears every hour which I normally do I was stuck in 3 parties for 60-70mins having to run through the mechanics only 2 clears within 3hrs. Unlike expert dungeons or whatsoever, savage and trial EX requires alittle bit of reading up and research before entering. I am currently juggling school activites, work and sports training and have very little time daily to dedicate to farming, it gets very exhausting if this becomes the daily norm I have to experience when doing EX/Savage stuff.

I'm not saying new players should be excluded, but there should be a filter, if I wanted to help players out I would normally join learning PFs or incompleted practice parties via RF. You need to learn to empathise with some of the players here, I get very burnt out at times too starting from ground zero. I'd assume you don't participate in savage or trials as much as the others here looking at your earlier sentences, but you shouldn't be so adamant, the points you have made have been very one sided thus far, completing neglecting other factors and experiences. As of now after the implementation of moving the EX trials to DF, farming for nidhog or Sep is practically impossible on the DF.

When RF was introduced, people were mostly happy with it because it was a system that works. However when certain things were removed from it people obviously weren't happy and before the reason " there is always PF", no PF farming requires you to stay until everyone gets their stuff, it is not something you can queue as and when you want like someone above have stated, that is the difference.

[KingXRay]

Read the messages on this topic please.

?
it arent gonna change my post or my thinking even read all of them
I play in JP server, when A9S-A12S still in raid finder, you still gonna meet lots of people that have no idea of the mechanic in completed option, but ever since it put to duty finder it actually helps everyone clear and seriously clear easier than before it was in raid finder.
I think it was the problem with NA/EU playstyle are different than JP as we have many people transfer from NA/EU they do wanted to clear raids or extreme but never can clear it on their server but they find it very easily clear it in JP server under first run or few.

*Dont have enough characters for all text, look for my next post*

[KingXRay]

- NA/EU people they dont have time to waste and sometime kinda aggressive to kick someone. In JP, people tend to help each other bit for understand the raid but there are still few people that act like NA/EU that you cant do anything about it. Myself, dont really care much as i always help people anyway.
- It also because of the online guides that causes confuse in different regions. Many people and I personally do affected by this when playing in JP server where most guide was from NA/EU end up opposite way or complete different in JP guide but just have experience to get use to it but its not hard at all.

You can try find and ask those who transferred from NA/EU, they will tell you other stuff as well.

If you still really really really want to have cleared people only, just use crossworld party finder...

[Rongway]

DF or RF, I dont care - they're basically the same. They are, however, very different from PF.

It sounds like where we're primarily in disagreement is whether the defining difference between Duty Finder and Party Finder comes down to (complete party vs incomplete party) or ("I don't care who I play with" vs "I care who I play with").

The ability to accommodate both complete and incomplete parties is a feature shared by both DF and PF. The ability to be selective about prior clears is not.

Insofar as functions apply to content that would be in the Raid Finder, RF is in this peculiar in-between spot where it has all the functionality of a duty finder, with a single added feature that really falls in the demesne of the party finder.

Do I want to queue with a complete party?
|
+----  No:  Do I care if people have cleared content already?
|              |
|              +----  No:  Queue Duty Finder
|              |
|              +----  Yes:  Queue Raid Finder
|
+----  Yes:  Do I have a complete party already?
               |
               +----  Yes:  Queue Duty Finder
               |
               +----  No:  Do I care if people have cleared content already?
                              |
                              +----  No:  Whether you use DF or PF doesn't matter.
                              |
                              +----  Yes:  Match with Party Finder.


----  vs  ----


Do I care if people have cleared content already?
|
+----  No:  Queue
|
+----  Yes:  Match with party finder

Everything you've said completely ignores what a few people are saying about 1 person who wants to queue a duty with the cleared only option and not join a party finder group. like the guy abouve you said about raid finder groups have no commitment you can be done after a single run if you get your drop your not expected to stay and farm... several run or commit hours of time.

And I'm ignoring those arguments for good reason. One-off, no commitment parties happen just fine in PF -- see the many Wondrous Tails parties. You can join one of those and get a win without ever saying anything to anyone, and then leave. Current trials and raids would work out just the same.