Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Talraen]

They have a chance to get queued together with people who want to learn/help in the duty incomplete queue. Of course there will be much less people who are helping new players to clear the fight, compared to people who just want to farm the fight. As I've said multiple times, sometimes helping others learn the fight means not clearing the fight itself, which means you earn nothing from spending 60-90 minutes with them, other than the pleasure of helping others and helping the playerbase get better as a whole (which admittedly, doesn't help much to get your bird mount or weapons/tokens/whatever).

Let me make this explicitly clear: you're right. Having bad players in your group can derail the group. I acknowledge that. Can you acknowledge that removing that risk is not the only effect the duty finder has?

There's a queue for aim to clear group (duty completion + duty incomplete). You make it sound like it's impossible to clear the fight together with others who haven't clear too. It's hard but doable. I did it in thordan ex, which arguably is the hardest ex trial in heavensward, just by joining practice/clear PF groups. Some of these fights are hard enough that you won't clear even if you're the only person in the group who haven't cleared. If you're late to the content it'll obviously be harder for you to find people to learn and clear the fight together, but that's just how it works in this game. You can't really avoid obsolescence in a vertical progression MMO.

Let's go further and think about the reason why most cleared people only want to go with people who have cleared too. The answer is quite simple, because the content is difficult enough. It's hard to carry people who know little to nothing about the fight. It takes a very long time to completely teach them the fight. You can probably slip into a ravana or bismarck clear party with bonus, and people will just ignore you and clear the fight while pretending you never existed, because they still can. That fight is so easy due to overgearing that you don't see half of the whole fight. It's a different problem if you slip into a12s queue without knowing anything, and if I was going to farm a12s then I'll definitely have problem with it since that pretty much means it's impossible to clear it. It takes hours (even weeks/months) for people to learn a12s before they clear it. When I join a practice or clear party for a12s I do so while keeping in mind that I don't expect a clear, but when I farm of course I expect clears (preferably smooth and easy ones too).

I'm not trying to make it sound like it's impossible to win with people who haven't cleared; that's the premise of this request. People want to be able to completely exclude these people because they feel that their presence makes a clear hard or impossible. Yet those same people expect those people to get those clears among only themselves. Or maybe they don't expect them to get clears at all? I'm not sure, because most of said people have barely acknowledged that people who haven't cleared the content even exist, except insofar as they not be allowed to queue with them.

Like I've said a few times, I completely understand why you'd want to have every clear be smooth and easy, and only ever get grouped with people who are well-geared and know the content. I want that too! While I'm perfectly willing to help people with random dungeon mechanics and whatnot, obviously I'd prefer if every run was done in 15 minutes with no fuss. However, I realize that there are implications of a system that allows that, and those implications can be dangerous. I'm not even entirely sure the downside for new players outweighs the upside for farming, but I'd like to at least acknowledge that there is a downside for new players. The mental gymnastics in this thread justifying that no, this is actually better for new players, are interesting to watch, but they don't do much to convince me.

I dont actually believe/agree a 100% with this because you forget another reason to give people this incentive: Its in place to keep them playing and give them "something to do". Ypu gotta keep people busy or they'll unsub - so putting this drops in place turns ex-primals into a grind, thats going to make people stick to the game. Its not only to help new people to get their clears, its also to make sure that experienced people have a reason to keep playing after they killed that primal.

Giving people something to do is important, but it's a side benefit here. Everything about the duty finder is there for only one reason: to make sure every piece of content is queuable. Look at the introduction of roulettes, how relic and anima worked, Wondrous Tails, etc. Look at the new player bonus. Everything is about keeping content relevant. That is the primary goal. Keeping players subscribed is important, but so is growth, and the game can't grow if new players can't complete old content. (That said, new players don't have to do Extreme primals so I don't know how important it is that they stay relevant. But I have no doubt that's why the mounts were implemented.)