Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[aleph_null]

Actually if you want a "no discrimination" queue system where everyone gets queued together, didn't you have that in NA/EU data centers before RF was introduced? How well did those thordan and a4s DF queues work in 3.2?

[Dzian]

The image is of the duty finder window, not the queue window. The one that you have to look at before you queue. .

I think you're misunderstanding how the duty finder works.

if you've got 7 people already queud for a duty and none of them have bonus and the 8th person that does have bonus joins the queue where does you're notification pop up then??

or if you've got 17dps in the queue and 4 of them have bonusbut might not be front of the queue what happens then. maybe they weren't front of the queue but someone missed the ready check and now that bonus guy has taken the empty spot........ where does the newbie notification come up now?

i can see how it might work for full parties using the party finder. but when you look at individuals using the duty finder your suggestion just wouldnt work.

so you want to abolish the raid finder because you think its uneccessary but your idea would not work in the duty finder. party finder groups might find it useful i admit. but you're talking about abolishing the raid finder and using the duty finder instead but it wouldn't work as my examples above show.

unless you're going to give them first 7 people queuing the option to queue with cleared people only. in which case its no different to the raid finder at all.

your suggestipn seems to recreate the whole reason the raid finder was added in the first place

[Rongway]

Irrelevancies

What part of full premade party don't you understand?

[Talraen]

On a side note, you seem pretty obsessed with calling newbies peasants and unwashed masses...

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing, either. This is why games like Overwatch have ranked matchmaking--it sucks for a newbie to get paired with someone who plays nonstop. It sucks for someone who wants to farm something to know that every DF that pops comes with the possibility of someone hopping in without even watching the vid and expecting the fight to be easy enough to do.

If a player doesn't want to teach they shouldn't be forced to, and yet without raid finder the chances are high that they'll have to. A fight that should take ten minutes suddenly takes up to 90 and what time the player had to farm is now up, and so is the free time the player set aside to farm. So they'll go instead to party finder and pray nobody sneaks in hoping for a carry, and DF will be even more dead than RF Uncleared is, meaning people hoping to just experience the fight have even less chance of doing so.

People certain treat new players like the unwashed masses. Do you have a better analogy?

Matchmaking in competitive games is not a fair comparison. It's actually kind of the opposite in a cooperative experience. If you're inexperienced and you get put against an experienced player in Overwatch, you're going to fail (lose). But if you're inexperienced and you get paired with experienced players in a trial, you're more likely to succeed. (And if you get paired only with inexperienced people, you're less likely to succeed.)

Your interpretation of how DF and RF will affect things is based on the premise that players with clears are universally unwilling to help new players. I can't honestly say if that's true or not, since I don't do Extreme trials except with friends, but it seems pretty unlikely to me. And if there's even one person with a clear who will use DF if RF isn't available, that's still a positive for a player without a clear. I don't understand how you can argue it makes new players less likely to get a clear. At worst, it's no different.

Keep in mind the premise of the OP's request is that new players are a liability. If that's the case, why are we expecting them to get clears with each other?

[Sida]

So, you two are arguing about two different use scenarios. Rongways suggestion of visible duty completion in DF has been, since beginning, for full parties only. This clearly includes first forming the said full party, most propably through PF. In this use scenario, it is reasonable to say that the RF doesn't add anything else to the table.

However, the use scenario Dzian is going after is one where solo player can queue into random party finder with the comfort of knowing they get into a party of those who have completed it. This approach would skip the forming of the farm party outside of the finder. In that use case scenario the suggested feature to DF would not give any results.

[Dzian]

What part of full premade party don't you understand?

ok you don't understand the problem.

the raid finder was added because it was impossible for people to clear content in the duty finder thus no one used it. and those that did would queue for an hour for thordan get in wipe in 4 mins and disband and go back to the queue... it was much the same in arr if you tried to duty finder coil or extreme primals back then that is the reason they added the raid finder.

party finder and premades are completely irrelevant at this point... the raid finder exists to help indiviuals not premade parties find players that fit there skills and abilities....

whether that be helping individuals finding players thant can reliably farm content they've already cleared or helping individuals find players willing to learn content they haven't cleared....

so if you want to get rid of raid finder you need to put something else in it's place that offers that functionality to the player

[bswpayton]

I think you're misunderstanding how the duty finder works.

if you've got 7 people already queud for a duty and none of them have bonus and the 8th person that does have bonus joins the queue where does you're notification pop up then??

You seem to be pretty informed on the game and I would really like to know why the primals started going with these raid heavy mechanics instead of just more individual effort fights. Before sep there was nothing I recalled that required nearly as much coordination before it with the tethers and the towers or the blue puddle. And I would say sep is def not harder than say even ramuh extreme which yea had its dps checks but wasnt something you had to have voice chat for.

Same thing with all the stacking in Sophia and doing everything as one unit like these arent raids then why the hell are the mechanics like this it really pisses me off. You can still make content challening without putting so much on team work when most people will be doing this content with randoms because they dont have statics are friends to do things with. These hw primals had way to much grouping and way to many if one person screws up everyone's dead mechanics which thus feeds the no bonus community instead of having them based on what one does as an individual in the group.

[Talraen]

You seem to be pretty informed on the game and I would really like to know why the primals started going with these raid heavy mechanics instead of just more individual effort fights. Before sep there was nothing I recalled that required nearly as much coordination before it with the tethers and the towers or the blue puddle. And I would say sep is def not harder than say even ramuh extreme which yea had its dps checks but wasnt something you had to have voice chat for.

Same thing with all the stacking in Sophia and doing everything as one unit like these arent raids then why the hell are the mechanics like this it really pisses me off. You can still make content challening without putting so much on team work when most people will be doing this content with randoms because they dont have statics are friends to do things with. These hw primals had way to much grouping and way to many if one person screws up everyone's dead mechanics which thus feeds the no bonus community instead of having them based on what one does as an individual in the group.

Ramuh Extreme required a lot of coordination to make sure terror was consistently cleansed. It didn't require voice chat, but it certainly helped. And the same is true for Sophia: everyone can learn the mechanics, at which point voice chat isn't really necessary. I haven't done Sephirot or Zurvan extreme, but the other HW extremes seemed pretty much on par with ARR's mechanical complexity to me.

[Vidu]

You don't seem to know the proper meaning of 'discriminate' because this is a perfect example of it.

"Excluding" people based on their experience is not discrimination - if you apply for a job that asked for three years of experience without ever having worked in that buisness at all and they go with someone who can bring five years of experience to the table, was that discrimination? No, it wasnt - they hired the person who could get the job done for them, because thats what they were looking for, instead of teaching a new kid how the buisness runs.

Its not a "no lala"-queue (that would be discrimination) - its "I would like to do X* - please, match me with people who share my goal as close as possible to make my experience in this game more pleasent"
*X can be both here: Learn the fight aswell as farm the fight.

Throwing around a word like "Discrimination" - which is a real problem for women, muslims, people of colour (and depending on your culuture potientially many more - they may forgive me for cutting them off here) - when it comes to seperate queues for people with different intrests in a video game seems a bit excessive, honestly.
We all should be playing because we enjoy the game - it might differ from person to person though what they are enjoying in the game right now. A chain is as strong as their weakest link - and a ex-primal/raid-group can only progress as fast as their slowest memember. Its very frustrating to always go snailpace when you're a cheetah (probably a bit excessive, but hey). Ideally the RF would be used to split people into "learning the first phases" - "learning later phases and ready to get the kill" - "know the fight, got the kill, want to kill some more (=farm)"
But you know why that doesnt work? Because people who havent seen any of the fight yet queue for "later phases". Because people join farm parties when they havent gotten the kill yet - without asking if its okay and explaining themself ("Hey, I got this boss to 5% like seven times, but never got the kill - is it cool that I come along?"). Because people put up PFs with "Kill party" or "Clear for a friend" and suddenly you find yourself with seven people who need explantions about "There will be pruple circles on the ground, putting bleed on you - dont stand in them. (And why the hell am I explaining this in a kill-ex-primal-group?! Didnt you learn that in Brayflox? Oh no, my bad... green puddles there...)"

We all want to play this game and have some fun with it - my idea of what is fun might differ from yours. Fun for me might be to finally get that bird - while fun for you is to finally get the kill.
And that doesnt go well together - I play the game as much for fun as you do. I'm not here for your fun. I'm not here as a forced teacher. There might be occassions when I'm having fun teaching (and for me, personally, there certainly are) - but there are also occassions when fun is: Quick, fast kills with a group of people who know what they're doing.
And if thats what I want right now, DF isnt an option. It is only an option for those who "just want to see the fight", making it useless for those who want to farm it.
I'm simply asking of the DF to pair me up with people of my own skill/experience-level - that can be both first timer or farmer. Personally, I would feel bad being the snail in a group of cheetahs, knowing fully well that the problem here is me. I am not so delusional and self-absorb to believe that everyone out there is playing the game to help me (or any other newbie) to get through content.

And a lot of posts from people who dont like the idea of seperating farm-people in DF from learning people seems to go into that direction: "Oh no, those poor newbies wont get the help of experienced people anymore! They wont end up in groups that can potentially kill the boss anymore, because they're not getting the 4 people who have this on farm and testing their luck in DF anymore!"
Not only is this way of thinking very belittling towards newbies because it implies that they need this help and arent able to challenge the fight themself (and if they really cant: maybe they should go back and practice a little more - do you believe that everyone who has killed it was born with the knowledge about how to kill Zurvan EX? No - they learnt their ropes aswell. I am playing this game since 2.0 now, its not so surprising that I know mechanics better than a person who started last week. And its not wrong to tell that person "Yeah, you gotta practice a bit more before you can do this" - quite different even, this is a way of progression next to gear-progression.) - it also leads to a lot of frustration for the person who would like to get a nice, clean kill in. A person, I remind you again, who is playing a game, just like newbie. Newbie having fun isnt more important than Oldie having fun. The RF-queue-option reflects that by letting everyone pick what comes clostest to the experience they consider "fun" right now.

If you are however on about how long the queue times are for certain primals: thats not a problem with RF. It was the same in ARR and DF for certain, more difficult primals since there was no point in queueing for them - specially not, when you had killed the primal and wanted to farm. Chances of getting a kill were and are so low that if you want to farm it, you have to take the slightly bitter pill of making a PF.
I sincerly doubt that a lot of people who are queueing for EX-primals with "clear" selected would queue normally. They queue becaus ethey know its "safe" to do that. Because they know they wont waste their free afternoon with a bunch of strangers and leave the game for work with the feeling to have accomplished nothing.

Asking for a "farm"-option in DF (what RF basically provided) is not discrimination. Its there to match people with matching goals and experience on the fights. You know how they're having swimlanes in swimming pools sometimes that are reserved for people who want to excersice seriously? Because thats "fun" for them and their goal right now? We are asking for that - we are not asking for a "no lala"-option.

[Talraen]

"Excluding" people based on their experience is not discrimination - if you apply for a job that asked for three years of experience without ever having worked in that buisness at all and they go with someone who can bring five years of experience to the table, was that discrimination? No, it wasnt - they hired the person who could get the job done for them, because thats what they were looking for, instead of teaching a new kid how the buisness runs.

I believe I was the first one to use the term "discriminate" in this thread, and I am sorry for doing so. I actually meant it in the non-loaded sense of deciding whether to include something or not. You're right, the raid finder does not qualify for the pejorative sense of discriminate. That's why I switched to using exclude.