Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Vidu]

Whether or not people want to use the party finder in its present form is irrelevant. If it included the cleared-only option, there would be no compelling reason to use the raid finder anymore which would lead to more interest in using the party finder.

I am not so sure about that - I would still be intrested in using the RF to be matched up with other people who have cleared the content already. And let me explain why: PF-Farm parties require a certain commitment. It is ofc expected that you're staying for several runs or that you stay even after you've got what you were looking for - and thats fair, a farm-party cant be a farm-party when they have to look for new people after every kill.
RF is only asking me to commit to one run at a time. If I have half an hour on my hand, thats not enought to join a farm-party - it is however enough to get one, maybe two kills in RF! Using the queue instead of the partyfinder is not only more convenient, its also giving you more control over how long you want to go on, without screwing other people over.

[Rongway]

PF-Farm parties require a certain commitment.

RF is only asking me to commit to one run at a time.

That's a fair point about the social constructs, but the PF includes the ability to specify, "One run only," or "One run, maybe more if time allows," at which point your social obligations are essentially the same as in a random party.

The perceived convenience of using the DF/RF over the PF, while being more than 0, is, surely overemphasized.

Duty Finder
1. Select duty.
2. Queue.
3. Wait for party to fill.
4. Confirm participation.


Raid Finder
1. Select duty.
2. Select clear/noclear preference.
3. Queue.
4. Wait for party to fill.
5. Confirm participation.


Party Finder, leader
1. Select duty.
x. Set item level (the default is no different from using DF/RF)
x. Set party composition (the default is no different from using DF/RF)
2. Comment. (≡ RF step 2)
3. Post listing. (≡ RF step 3)
4. Wait for party to fill.
5. Queue.
6. Confirm participation


Party Finder, joiner
1. Select duty.
2. Join party.
3. Wait for party to fill.
4. Confirm participation.

(I decline to consider the ready check process, as the "Confirm participation" step easily subsumes the function of a ready check; anyone who is not ready can simply decline the pop -- this is analogous to a random person in DF/RF declining a pop.)


And if we remove RF.2, RF is exactly a DF. Then if we move the clear enforcement to PF, this changes the Party Finder leader's task flow to

Party Finder, leader
1. Select duty.
2a. Select clear/noclear preference.
2b. Comment.
3. Post listing.
4. Wait for party to fill.
5. Queue.
6. Confirm participation

Or if we add a bonus indicator to the DF,

Party Finder, leader
1. Select duty.
2. Comment.
3. Post listing.
4. Wait for party to fill.
5a. Check for bonus indicator
5b. Queue.
6. Confirm participation.

(Here, I decline to consider the joiners ability to see the bonus indicator or not, as it has no effect on the ultimate outcome -- if the party leader queues anyway, the rest of the party will see the bonus message on entry and people might quit, which makes it no different than using the DF.)


The PF joiner task flow would still be the same, and it is equivalent to the DF flow. Interactions like clarification of expectations, experience levels, and prefered strategies, or the lack of such communication resulting in unpleasant surprises, is independent of which interface is used. However, if you use the PF, you have the option of clarifying these things before committing to a 30 minute penalty if things go unexpectedly.

[KingXRay]

I dont think it should go back as people that looking to clear arent able to get in at all as most people dont do uncomplete anymore, adding it to duty finder helps everyone to have chance to clear and people that are cleared can help them clear as well

[Vidu]

I dont think it should go back as people that looking to clear arent able to get in at all as most people dont do uncomplete anymore, adding it to duty finder helps everyone to have chance to clear and people that are cleared can help them clear as well

People can help other people to clear in RF aswell. The difference with DF now is that they have to help, even if they dont want to - and that is bad for both sides.

Because people think that everyone who hasn't cleared something yet is looking for a carry. That is simply not true. Some people just want to get up to bat. Raid finder wasn't working because queues never popped because once people get a clear, they choose the duty complete option. People can't learn if they can't even get a group of 8 to enter with. Duty finder gives people a bigger pool of players. If playing with mere mortals is unacceptable, then don't use DF.

People joining the wrong group for the goals is something that goes both ways. Players that don't have a clue what they are doing shouldn't be joining farm parties. Players that join a learning party shouldn't expect perfection. I've seen too many learning parties fall apart because someone rages over a wipe in a learning party.

Playing with mere mortals is totally acceptable, since we all are that :P Dont try to make this sound as if people who got the clear and want to farm now are all so high and mighty that they dont want to be associated with "peastens" anymore. If DF is only working because it forces people who want to farm into learning groups, than thats broken. If people can only get experience or even kills in DF because people who'd rather not be there but had to swallow that bitter pill, were but into that group, thats not right.
Why are you also so willingly to screw over the experienced people and make the easy matchmaking tool the game gave us, useless for them? Because that is what happend right now: DF is useless for everyone who'd like to farm primals. Its probably great to the see the first two minutes of a fight but thats about it (depending on the fight, ofc). And yet you think its okay to ask of experienced people to throw themself into those first two minutes over and over again because maybe one day, there will be a party who can get the clear?
You're saying DF should be for everyone - when right now its NOT, because it is not useful for those who want quick clears anymore. You're saying that you shouldnt expect that in DF - but RF allowed us to do excatly that!

Sure, farm parties are more useful most often (specially when you do solo-tank or solo-heal strats like on Zurvan), but telling everyone to just make a farm party in PF and not have an option to check "cleared" in DF/RF (I really dont care about the menu it is in...), because you're hoping for those few who dont want to join farm parties right now to hop into DF and get a bunch of strangers to minute five of a fight, is just not... right.

Its a game - it should allow us to have fun! If fun to you means: wiping in phase one of any given EX-primal: Hooray, grats, you can do that by going into DF! If fun means however to clear that fight in less than 30 minutes you are screwed now.

[KDSilver]

I dont think it should go back as people that looking to clear arent able to get in at all as most people dont do uncomplete anymore, adding it to duty finder helps everyone to have chance to clear and people that are cleared can help them clear as well

Read the messages on this topic please.

[KingXRay]

Read the messages on this topic please.

?
it arent gonna change my post or my thinking even read all of them
I play in JP server, when A9S-A12S still in raid finder, you still gonna meet lots of people that have no idea of the mechanic in completed option, but ever since it put to duty finder it actually helps everyone clear and seriously clear easier than before it was in raid finder.
I think it was the problem with NA/EU playstyle are different than JP as we have many people transfer from NA/EU they do wanted to clear raids or extreme but never can clear it on their server but they find it very easily clear it in JP server under first run or few.

*Dont have enough characters for all text, look for my next post*

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

One reason I like the Raid Finder is the (assumed) higher expectations of it. Humor me if you will:

In truth, Goblin server's PF - before cross server - went barely used. Why? Because aside from new content on or around patch day, most players simply stuck to linkshells and small groups of friends and acquaintances in order to be able to consistently clear anything. Reasons for this were largely that many players simply dragged their feet to catch up or stay up because of the progression formula in game, many were not up to par skill-wise, or up to even learn, and by the time those who did want to learn began to make PFs eagerly searching for help clearing content, those who were capable had already run it to death by then. Then there are the people that try to slip into farms or the like, and just simply aren't ready. This made the linkshells and cliques almost a necessity, but unfortunately, if you weren't in, you were out. And I've been on both sides of that. It's not fun either way.

The Raid Finder seemed like a great tool for people with busy schedules, or people who might not know many other endgame players, but at least were willing to put forth the serious effort to clear content. Unlike the Duty Finder where people often queue up expecting the worst (and thus offer their worst), the Raid Finder produced a pool of more like-minded, motivated players who'd be willing to be patient and put in the time and effort to learn or clear content. Mileage varies of course.

[Dzian]

Everything you've said completely ignores what a few people are saying about 1 person who wants to queue a duty with the cleared only option and not join a party finder group. like the guy abouve you said about raid finder groups have no commitment you can be done after a single run if you get your drop your not expected to stay and farm... several run or commit hours of time.

You want to remove what you called rf2 in your list. (select cleared or not cleared preference) but that's exactly the option people want... whether its in the duty finder or raid finder isn't really important I guess as long as that option is there somewhere... where it seems you want to make it only available to full premade parties. and not the rest of the player base who might not want to join a full premade party for numerous reasons.

if you do that all you succeed in doing is making the duty finder the total mess it was before they added the raid finder. in that people without full parties simply wouldn't queue at all to do the content because the chance of success was non existant.
ever try and duty finder thordan ex before the raid finder was added? or seph ex? or coil back in ARR? next to impossible
which is ultimately why they added the raid finder in the first place. so you're creating a problem that had already been solved by adding the raid finder

[KingXRay]

- NA/EU people they dont have time to waste and sometime kinda aggressive to kick someone. In JP, people tend to help each other bit for understand the raid but there are still few people that act like NA/EU that you cant do anything about it. Myself, dont really care much as i always help people anyway.
- It also because of the online guides that causes confuse in different regions. Many people and I personally do affected by this when playing in JP server where most guide was from NA/EU end up opposite way or complete different in JP guide but just have experience to get use to it but its not hard at all.

You can try find and ask those who transferred from NA/EU, they will tell you other stuff as well.

If you still really really really want to have cleared people only, just use crossworld party finder...

[Mocita]

It could allow us to know before queing if someone is new or not.

Some people have real life stuff to take care of, so chances are they're unable to get on when the patch drops. If anything, you should be happy for new people. Explain the fight to them and just be patient. It's not like everyone else was any better when all of that first dropped. Sure, they had to learn the hard way, and there were no videos to watch. But, isn't our job to help teach other players how things go? As a mentor, I take great pride in helping other players, whether they be new adventurers, returners, or even other mentors themselves. While I'm not much of an Extreme runner or raider myself, I still will teach new people in the duty how to do mechanics.