Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[HyoMinPark]

If people keep saying just use PF, PF should provide the tools required to enforce whatever restrictions the party leader wants.

I like the idea of adding it to PF. It would make sense, because PF already lets us filter based on minimum ilvl all the way to what party comp the leader wants for their group. Adding in this filter would be extremely beneficial. Wouldn't solve the Duty Complete PUGs but it could still help with the issue of people sneaking into farms for their clear. Which is far more prevalent than some think.

[Dzian]

Let me ask you this then would you say to put the Arr primals in the rf as well then. I dont think youd advocate for that so why with the same fate coming swiftly to these primals should we keep them in the rf when in two months people could care less. Its not necessary , so we should appease farmers for two more months just to make them happy when they couldnt care less once the expansion hits. That's pretty much what everyone is arguing here a small two month window when it has been a certain way for the rf whole existence but you guys cant handle a mere two months.

If titan ex was in the raid finder it really wouldn't matter at all.

Let me ask you this. How many people queue titan ex or coil t13 in the duty finder?

Without touching party finder because it seems people don't want to ya know create a learning party and just expect duty finder success.

Go and queue them. Tell me how long they take to ding? Probably pull some people queuing mentor roulette to help you fill the party. Does mentor roulette include coil I dunno?

When it does ding though tell me how many attempts it takes to clear it or see it abandoned? Was there a newbie there?

My point is that even though these things might be in the duty finder the likely hood you could get a party and clear it is incredibly low. Because people wanting to farm it simply won't touch the duty finder without the option to filter out newbies.

Putting them in the duty finder ultimately helps no one.

Even for more current content. Queue a12s in the duty finder. Tell me how long that takes to ding. Or how long it takes to clear or get abandoned.... were there newbies?

Pretty sure that no one wanting to farm a12s is going to risk a duty finder group without a completed only option.

[bswpayton]

If titan ex was in the raid finder it really wouldn't matter at all.

Let me ask you this. How many people queue titan ex or coil t13 in the duty finder?

Maybe not titan extreme but I joined after hw like I mention and I cleared levi, garuda, ifrit, shiva, and ramuh all in the duty finder and the waits where about 30 mins or so. I never unlocked Odin, but yes I have gotten king moogle as well as Titan extreme in duty finder. So yea sure there wasnt a for sure chance at success, but it still was possible to clear the content through duty finder I dont see where the idea that its impossible to clear something in df. It wasnt even until thordan and up that I even had to use pf for content when they were in rf that I didnt get a que for stuff because it was far less used. So thats why Im scratching my head wondering when rf was even good I guess for sophia and zur and thats about it every other que was far longer than I ever waited in df.

[Dzian]

So thats why Im scratching my head wondering when rf was even good I guess for sophia and zur and thats about it every other que was far longer than I ever waited in df.

Raid finder was great. Yoshi said it was a big contributing factor in the clear rates of creator savage (especially 9s and 10s) and hugely popular for Sophia. The highest clears of any extreme primal "in patch"

I cleared Zurvan and even farmed a few wins Zurvan in raid finder and had better success than most farm parties.. 7 of the 10 totems I got for my blm staff were raid finder farms. Maybe because people weren't relying on the 5th dps to carry them. Although Zurvan queues could take a while to fill sometimes. Because most people wanted to solo tank.

But most people that used raid finder for Sophia found farm queues were usually.less than 5 minutes. As read in this thread and several others. That's a good indication of how popular it was..

[Dualgunner]

Except it doesn't, payton. Now that the queues have no filter, the vets aren't saying "Oh well I'll just queue anyway" they're saying "Okay whatever, I'm just gonna stick with PF farm parties."

DF will be as dead as ever and veteran players will still only queue in DF if they *want* to help teach people. Removing the aforementioned duties from RF has helped nobody, and inconvenienced a few.

[HyoMinPark]

I really don't know how many times, or how many different ways I can say:

-- Moving these to Duty Finder did not give them "open access" for "everyone." They were all just as accessible when they were in Raid Finder. Moving them didn't change that.
-- Just because you think that you can't queue in Raid Finder as a Duty Incomplete (guess what, you can), does not in any way exclude you from the content. Don't have a clear? Need one? Want to learn the fight? Queue just isn't wanting to pop? Make a PF for it. With the cross-server Party Finder, it is easier than ever to get people to join and help out. Take some initiative and stop saying that Raid Finder's filtering options prevent you from doing the content. The only thing prevent people from doing the content is apparently their inability to create PFs, and try to get a full party to help them. Which is not that hard.

Unless you are making learning PFs at weird/inactive times on your data center, there will be no difficulty getting people to join. I got my BisEx and RavEx clears back before cross-server Party Finder was a thing (and back when you actually had to do mechanics, and could not just cheese the hell out of the fights). Party took maybe 30 minutes to fill. I received the rest of my clears mostly after the implementation of the cross-server PF. Parties took even less time to fill then.

New people are not being forced to jump through hoops to get their clears. They are just being asked to (and expected to) clear the content just like those who have already cleared it did. And to stop asking for free carries. Stop asking for special treatment. If these "veterans" can clear the content with them in Raid Finder/with filters, so can you.

Even before the implementation of Raid Finder, there were still PFs stating: "Farm party. No bonus. Know entire fight. Know all mechanics, etc.". This is not something new that popped up with the advent of RF. 90% of parties in PF are not farm only; some days there's more learning parties up, and some days there are more farm parties up. Not seeing a learning party for [insert content here] doesn't prevent anyone from making their own PF for it.

[aleph_null]

Id beg the differ on that one because I have stated all of my arr primals where cleared viva duty finder my bis and ravana was cleared in duty finder many people have stated they have gotten many clears in duty finder. I think the difference is simply this those whom que in duty finder dont expect a clear, if they que but the opportunity to clear. Farmers just simply want for sure clears which is perfectly fine, but just like someone who hasnt even touch the content has to jump leaps and bounds to get their learning parties to result in something that works. Its simply welcome to the club at this point, most of the time farmers wernt gona que for the havent cleared section either. So its no different duty finder ques will be filled a lot faster than tryin to que in rf when u havent cleared the content yet.

Those arr ex and bismarck/ravana ex clears you obtained are only because those fights are very trivial at current ilv (or at lv 50 max ilv), so they're kind of in a grey area between "hard contents" and "easy contents." The same thing can be said about a1s farm via DF, for these relatively easy ex/savage contents most people will just ignore any bonuses just like normal dungeons/trials/raids. The problem with DF lies in the actually difficult contents (a3s onwards for example, or some of the coil turns synced) that are quite impossible to clear with people who don't know the fight.

If you allow clear filter in DF/RF, then those easier ex/savage contents will be harder to clear for newer players via DF, since even if they're easy, farmers would most probably still choose to turn the clear filter on. If you leave all hard contents in DF without the clear filter, the actually hard contents' queues will be dead.

In my opinion the former is still better, since new players can make PF for those easier ex/savage contents stating that they have first time bonuses. If I'm farming poetics/lore I'd gladly join a PF for helping someone clear a1s, ravana, or the easier lv 50 ex trials (even synced garuda, ifrit, mog are still easy enough).

[HyoMinPark]

Those arr ex and bismarck/ravana ex clears you obtained are only because those fights are very trivial at current ilv (or at lv 50 max ilv), so they're kind of in a grey area between "hard contents" and "easy contents." The same thing can be said about a1s farm via DF, for these relatively easy ex/savage contents most people will just ignore any bonuses just like normal dungeons/trials/raids.

I actually got my Bis and Rav clears back when the content was still difficult, when you could not cheese the mechanics like you can now. I was honestly shocked when I decided to actively farm RavEx for his bird at how ridiculously cheesed the fight could be, and how much of it was skipped. I wasn't at my current ilvl (266) for those clears. Same for the ARR extremes. I cleared all of those at level 50-52 before I even entered Ishgard. It was like: cleared the Hard Modes, now let's clear the Extremes. Did I farm them at current ilvl? Some of them. But some of them I also did, at most, ilvl 110-115. I maybe cleared Ramuh and Shiva in Ironworks, but I know I didn't clear the others with much higher level gear than their minimums (because for the longest time I wore the i90 AF gear because I loved the look; after that I wore the i110 Kirumu set because dat coat.)

My clears were split between making/joining clear PFs and just straight up queuing in DF for them. I know Titan Ex I had to turn to PF for that. But I farmed for Levi's and Shiva's ponies some days just queuing directly into them. I'd just do other stuff while I waited for the queue to pop. I know that the times are different now, but what I'm trying to say is: if I can do it, so can the others. And I am no hardcore raider.

The problem with DF lies in the actually difficult contents (a3s onwards for example, or some of the coil turns synced) that are quite impossible to clear with people who don't know the fight.

That's the way the content was designed though. It was not designed for people to go in blind, wipe maybe once or twice, and then clear. It was not made for people to just randomly queue into them like they would Expert Roulette, and clear with no communication whatsoever. Even groups for Creator Savage (barring those insane World First groups, but the more common statics that only Raid a couple hours a night, 2-3 days a week) are still working on progression for some of the later tiers. Some groups I know took months to clear A9S and A10S; even longer for A11S. But this doesn't mean the content excludes new people. They are more than capable of either forming their own learning PF for just whoever feels up to it that day, or for even forming their own static.

If you allow clear filter in DF/RF, then those easier ex/savage contents will be harder to clear for newer players via DF, since even if they're easy, farmers would most probably still choose to turn the clear filter on. If you leave all hard contents in DF without the clear filter, the actually hard contents' queues will be dead.

I wouldn't say the first part of this is necessarily true. I still see clear parties for BisEx or A9S or even super old ones like A4S. For a while, PFs for A4S clears => Glamour/Mount Farms were pretty common. And this was semi-recently on my data center. They may not be as common as the "A11S speed clears, 2-point strat" or "Zurvan Ex farm; no bonus, skip soar or disband" groups, but they aren't completely non-existent.

I like joining clear parties some days. Especially if it's something I don't have a clear for. If people made PFs to clear Midas Savage or Gordias Savage or even Second Coil Savage, I would join them. Sure my experience wouldn't be the same as clearing them during their tier, but I could still experience the fight nonetheless. Like-minded people are out there, but you gotta take the initiative to find them, and not just expect them to pop up for you.

I would expect farm parties to use the Duty Complete filter (regardless of where it is implemented, be it RF, DF, or PF). After all, their goal is to farm. They aren't looking to teach. So people really can't--and shouldn't--fault them for that. Just like the clear/learning parties. People shouldn't join them and expect a one-pull clear, and for the party to turn into some fast-paced farm group. They should expect wipes, and they should be ready to teach.

Filters or no filters, neither of those groups are going to change when it comes to goals. And I don't think taking away filters will increase or decrease the amount of clears achieved. If people are that determined to clear something, they will certainly find a way. The filters are there more so for convenience so people can be like "I feel like teaching today; let's roll Duty Incomplete and have some fun" or "I really just want to farm [content] today; I don't feel up for teaching people how to clear it, so I'm going to roll Duty Complete."


EDIT/ADDITION: Since I have reached my posting limit today (seriously, can this not be a thing... it's like I have to pick and choose what to respond to... but anyways), thanks for the clarification aleph_null. :3 I wasn't trying to sound rude or abrasive or confrontational. Whether your comment was directed at me or not, I just responded with my opinion on things. Guess I shouldn't have assumed it was just because it was posted after mine. ^^;;;

@bswpayton: I give up. I don't know how to get you to understand that you still had access to content in the Raid Finder, regardless of whether or not you were "late" to the content. If you couldn't get the Incomplete queue to pop, you still had Party Finder to help you get a group together of like-minded individuals that want to learn the fight, whether it be with the help of guides/veterans or just straight up blind. If you did not have the PF option, and Ex primals could only be entered via the Raid Finder, then yeah, maybe you would have run into some issues. Or maybe, people like you who are not clearing the content at zero-hour, would have faster queues, because that would be the only avenue for the duties. As it is now, though, that is not the case. The option was always there: RF or PF. Like others have said, back when Ex primals were only in DF, some of them had extremely long queues, and some never popped at all (Thordan Ex), similar to the situation now. What did those people probably do? They probably turned to Party Finder at that point, looking for help/people. If they decided to just whine and pout and not do anything to rectify their situation, then that's on them. Not others, not the system.

I don't care about if the primals are in Raid Finder or Duty Finder or if they make some Special Shiny Ex Primal Finder for it. Same for Savage. But if I want to make a farm, and guarantee to filter out bonuses from my farm because I don't feel like wiping for 60 minutes with no clears, or I don't feel like teaching that day and just want to get my loot, then I think I should have the option to do so. And that's not discriminatory, or exclusionary. The same would go for clear/learning groups if they wanted to just get people together that haven't cleared the content at all, jumping in completely blind and ready for any surprises. I've met people like that before. And it applies to those learning parties that have veterans join and expect a one-hit-KO for SephEx and then throw a fit when that doesn't happen, and they're reminded that it was a LEARNING party. Filter out vets, include only new people. It can go both ways.

[aleph_null]

snip

Sorry I didn't see your post, my post wasn't replying to yours. But in short I agree that the clear filter is QOL for people who have cleared contents since they actually have a choice of not having to teach people when they queue in DF, instead of having to create a PF for farm.

Many threads have complained about rf this is the first one I've ever seen complaining about duty finder. So like I said the roles have shifted for those whom simply want to just have access the have more access now and farmers aren\\'t as in control just for two mere months I don\\'t see how that\\'s a problem. The trend will end as soon as storm blood hits the same people who are complaining here will be the same ones advocating for new players to just simply run the content unsync and move on to the hw Primals. Thats all I heard from these forums was to get over it the content is old move on to this new stuff. So I will repeat whats been said to me the content is old and irrelevant so why get upset about it new stuffs on the way

Just to clarify a bit, whether new stuffs are on the way or not (they always are, every few months), I still feel that current end game contents should be in RF (or if RF is integrated into DF, I'd like to see different queues for practice/clear/farm). Maybe for all the savage floors and the last few ex trials at least.

As for recommending people to do previous expansion contents unsync, it's because at different level caps jobs play really differently and most of the time I'd argue it's not worth relearning your job for lower level cap just to clear the hardest contents. Unless maybe you have cleared all the current end game contents and are no longer interested in them (weird composition runs, speed kills, weird strats etc). If a new player joins my fc and asks about coils or lv 50 relics, I'd honestly recommend them to leave those behind or help them unsynced, since the rewards are not relevant anymore and they could spend the time to catch up to current contents and prepare for the next patch/expansion. Even the skills you learn for raiding at lower level caps may not be applicable to raiding at current level cap, since some jobs change a lot between their lv 50 and lv 60 playstyle/rotation. Of course if they're okay with holding off their progress just to clear those fights synced that's fine too, but that could very likely mean they'll be left behind in the next patch/expansion so I'll at least let them know about that "risk."