Why no Xbox?

[ReplicaX]

This is wrong according to the rocket league dev

Rocket League is a completely different story and genre. MS wasn't on board with cross-platform during the majority of development:

Dunhan noted that this cross-platform idea had been something they asked Microsoft about when Rocket League was set for an Xbox One release, but he stated that Microsoft did not seem to be on board with it. Only after they had neared the release date would Microsoft take the initiative to offer the title as one for their new cross-play efforts and started working towards this possibility in the game.

Which is why it wasn't turned on until a later patch on XBOne.

There is also zero mention of the actual agreement which is required between MS & Sony for cross-platform and we likely won't hear of its details publicly.

So it isn't as simple as "Sony just has to turn it on". Sony & MS both have to come to an agreement to enable it.

[Kosmos992k]

What would they as devs and others devs gain from lying? You do know that they can be sued for it? I believe neither Sony or Microsoft see computer as their competitors and have no problem making this cross play. But we are talking about cross play between consoles here, which is a totally different matter, because they are huge rivals and sony as the leader sales wise gets much more money, if they don't allow xbox players to play with ps4 players, because many consoles are sold on the argument "hey my friend has THIS console, so i need to buy it in order to play with them". This means the person has to buy the console, the game and the ps+/gold sub, which is huge for the companys. Now FF14 is an different matters and i do believe this is on microsoft, cause they don't want to bend their others rules for MMO imo. But in general, microsoft is more open to cross play between consoles then sony it seems. independend devs have no reason to lie here. Also the whole "past" - argument is a bit difficult to use here, cause things can change as we've seen time and time ago. As an example even Microsoft allowed cross play before their huge rule change. One of the examples was FF11, in which Xbox 360 and PS2 players could play together.

OK, look I know you want to play white knight for Microsoft and Xbox, it's quite clear. But, there is no reason why PSN and XBL have to open up to each other to have Xbox and PlayStation players together in a game. I didn't say the developer was lying, I said they were using 'marketing speak'.

For any game that uses 3rd party servers such as FFXIV for example, there is absolutely zero requirement for any integration of XBL and PSN. None. Nada, nil, zero, naught. Get the picture? You're posting in this topic and pushing a fluff piece about MS champion of cross platform play when MS has been actively engaged in curtailing cross platform play for years. Not only that, you're the one suggesting that the console maker who has shown them self more open to cross platform play than any other - Sony - is the obstacle. That's simply nonsense.

Microsoft wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have the ability to control their customers through XBL, but they also want cross platform play. To do that requires Sony to open PSN to XBL and in turn to anything connected to XBL. Sony on the other hand has good reason to keep PSN locked as tightly as they can, and there is no real need for that kind of integration since game developers are *free* to implement cross platform multiplayer if they wish, as long as it doesn't rely on Sony servers.

By forcing their own customers to work within XBL for cross platform play, MS continues to be able to require XBL Gold membership for online play, and is able to control what their players can and cannot see/do. Basically MS has a walled garden called Xbox Live and they won't allow their Xbox people out of the garden. PSN is a walled garden of it's own, but instead of the PlayStation being locked within the walled garden, Playstation people can decide for themselves whether they want to enter the garden or not, and they can leave whenever they want. Playing FFXIV is completely outside the walled garden of PSN, Sony doesn't do anything to prevent me or the millions of other PS4 owners from playing on game servers beyond their control.

When Microsoft announced their conversion to being open to multiplayer, so many media outlets took it at face value and started publishing pieces asking why Sony hasn't responded, and wondering whether they will or not. That would be a false narrative because PlayStation was/is already open to cross platform multi-player. The trouble is that the media outlets did not look deeply enough to realize a) cross Platform multiplayer is already available to PlayStation, b) the only reason Xbox players are unable to do it is Microsoft's own policies and restrictions, c) nothing about what Microsoft proposes actually removes the basic limitations and restrictions placed on Xbox users already and d) that Microsoft's scheme continues to lock their Xbox users inside XBL forcing Sony (and others) to open their networks to XBL in order to allow Xbox players to see anything beyond Xbox Live. As I have already said, Sony has no reason or interest in opening PSN to any potential hacks, and opening to XBL creates a nice big hole for hackers to exploit.

I'm sorry, but in no way do I see Microsoft being the good buy here. Besides that, nothing about the MS announcement of new openness actually addresses the problems with letting Xbox players into FFXIV. The reason for that is that to do so, MS would have to allow Xbox players to play multi-player outside XBL for free. If MS did that on one game, they'd have to do it for all games, and they'd lose sole control over multi-player for Xbox - and be unable to mandate XBL Gold membership for the privilege. That's why they won't, that's why Xbox isn't in FFXIV, and that has everything to do with Microsoft and their policies and *nothing* to do with Sony.

There is also zero mention of the actual agreement which is required between MS & Sony for cross-platform and we likely won't hear of its details publicly.

So it isn't as simple as "Sony just has to turn it on". Sony & MS both have to come to an agreement to enable it.

Indeed, but even with an agreement it's still not that simple. Not only would there need to be contract terms agreed, but there would also need to be two way indemnity clauses in the event that one network was successfully hacked or disrupted via the other. Additionally, any agreement would require Sony to implement some level of integration of PSN to XBL. That would take fairly substantial changes to their client and server side code for PSN to enable this - not to mention on going security and testing challenges.

Sony really have very little to gain from this, and quite a lot to lose if something goes wrong with it.

[era1Ne]

OK, look I know you want to play white knight for Microsoft and Xbox, it's quite clear.

I am not. I just get what companys want when they make an consumer friendly desicion. Be it Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft or any other company in the world.

For any game that uses 3rd party servers such as FFXIV for example, there is absolutely zero requirement for any integration of XBL and PSN. None. Nada, nil, zero, naught. Get the picture? You're posting in this topic and pushing a fluff piece about MS champion of cross platform play when MS has been actively engaged in curtailing cross platform play for years. Not only that, you're the one suggesting that the console maker who has shown them self more open to cross platform play than any other - Sony - is the obstacle. That's simply nonsense.

Developers are not allowed to put PC, PS or Xbox users together in an network enviroment, without the agreement of them. A lot of developers have talked about this. This isn't about tech, it is about the company rules and security, because the servers have to first log in into PSN/XBOX/whatever and then go to the servers of the company. For example when the PSN is down you can't log in in FF14, but you can stay log in when you did before the maintance. It works like this / your console -> online service of the console -> game publisher server /. And for your second part: Stuff can change. Many developers are also using p2p and this doesnt work. For example: https://twitter.com/Harada_TEKKEN/st...33993489199104

Microsoft wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have the ability to control their customers through XBL, but they also want cross platform play. To do that requires Sony to open PSN to XBL and in turn to anything connected to XBL.

No. No offense, but the rest of your post is a lot of assumptions
Edit: A good read. Yoshida himself about the matter. Basically you can't compare PC <-> console cross play with console A <-> console B. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/2...omplicated.php
Edit 2: Another great one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-platform_play

[Kosmos992k]

I am not.

I think you are.

Developers are not allowed to put PC, PS or Xbox users together in an network enviroment, without the agreement of them.

PS4 is a computer, it can access the Internet with, or without PSN authentication. No permission from Sony is required.

A lot of developers have talked about this. This isn't about tech, it is about the company rules and security, because the servers have to first log in into PSN/XBOX/whatever and then go to the servers of the company.

No, it's not about tech, or software, it's about policies and walled gardens.

For example when the PSN is down you can't log in in FF14, but you can stay log in when you did before the maintance. It works like this / your console -> online service of the console -> game publisher server /.

Actually, it works like this. Authenticate to PSN. Start client, client does license check and a version check of the launcher, then starts the FFXIV launcher. We're done with PSN now, and for the record, this part of PSN is completely 100% free. PSN is completely free. PS Plus is not, but PS Plus is also not required in this case...nor is PSN once the basic license check of the game is completed. By the way, *every* game does this to ensure that you're licensed to run it, it doesn't matter if it's Steam, PSN, XBL or whatever other service you use.

But, now we have started the launcher, we are done with PSN. Next up the PS4 connects to the SE login servers, login, validation of license and credentials and connect to the lobby server.

That's it.
p.s. This is why once you are connected to SE's FFXIV servers, PSN can disappear into a black hole without kicking you from the game.

And for your second part: Stuff can change. Many developers are also using p2p and this doesnt work.

Do you know why P2P doesn't work? P2P works just fine if implemented by developers on PC and PS4 - it's how Rocket league let PS4 and PC play together before now. But, not Xbox, because Xbox isn't allowed to see outside XBL. Which is a fundamental point you insist on ignoring.

No. No offense, but the rest of your post is a lot of assumptions

No, it really isn't assumptions.

Edit: A good read. Yoshida himself about the matter. Basically you can't compare PC <-> console cross play with console A <-> console B. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/2...omplicated.php

Yoshida is talking about integration of Xbox and PSN required to handle things like unified matching by XBL/PSN themselves. You're honestly fooling yourself because you're not thinking. In any game that is served by it's own servers, all matching and such is handled in-game by that service - which is why Duty Finder works. If the FFXIV client was put on an Xbox and that Xbox was allowed out of the walled garden, it would work in exactly the same way as it does for PS4, that's not assumption it's a simple fact. If on the other hand, the game servers were being handled inside one of the walled gardens of PSN or XBL, or the 3rd party server did not provide matching services and instead relied on XBL and/or PSN for that, then yes, it's more complicated because you have to have a level of integration between XBL and PSN to facilitate that.

Relevant quote;

"Because PC is an open platform it's much more straightforward," Yoshida explained. "Connecting two different closed networks

That's the walled gardens...

is much more complicated so we have to work with developers and publishers to understand what it is they are trying to accomplish.

"We also have to look at the technical aspect - and the technical aspect could be the easiest. We also have to look at policy issues and business issues as well."

Which is precisely what I said. connecting XBL and PSN is not simple and requires a lot of software modification, as well as contracts and terms to be agreed - you did read that bit in my post, right?

But, none of that, and nothing that Yoshida said have anything what so ever to do with games like FFXIV. There is no integration there is no "connection of two closed networks", it's purely client server with SE's servers. Adding Xbox to FFXIV requires zero contact between XBL and PSN. To say otherwise is completely wrong, and to continue to push that is just plain foolish.

Edit 2: Another great one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-platform_play

I don't need a 101 on cross platform play. But it seems you might need a 101 on simple network interoperability and client/server computing.

[Hikuras]

It's all pointless anyway seeing as it's not sony who's holding FFXIV back on this. Seeing as how we can already play with PC users. It's XBOX that has to get with the program and allow their users to play with everyone else. But with the way XBL works I dunno. I think Kosmos says it all perfectly more sound then I could.

[Felis]

For example when the PSN is down you can't log in in FF14, but you can stay log in when you did before the maintance.

Wrong
Set your PS4 as your primary console before PSN go down and you can log in

[era1Ne]

PS4 is a computer, it can access the Internet with, or without PSN authentication. No permission from Sony is required.

consoles are closed computer you are right, but they still need permission from Sony for everything, because ultimately the plattform owner says what is allowed and whats not. You can't just legaly create an PS4 game, app or access the PSN service without permission from Sony. On pc this is different and developers can do what they want with it. The sources are out there, but since you ignored the ones i posted already, i won't post others. As with every online game on ps there is a connection to PSN ID in FF14. You can't just "access the internet" as an third party on the consoles. There are rules companies have to follow when they want to develop and release their product on a console.

Do you know why P2P doesn't work? P2P works just fine if implemented by developers on PC and PS4 - it's how Rocket league let PS4 and PC play together before now. But, not Xbox, because Xbox isn't allowed to see outside XBL. Which is a fundamental point you insist on ignoring.

PC and Xbox cross play works aswell, as the developers said, but Xbox <-> PS not. If only the developer of the game said, why this doesn't work. oh wait they did

Which is precisely what I said. connecting XBL and PSN is not simple and requires a lot of software modification, as well as contracts and terms to be agreed - you did read that bit in my post, right? But, none of that, and nothing that Yoshida said have anything what so ever to do with games like FFXIV. T

You did read my older post in which i acknowledge that in my opinion ff14 is a different case and Microsoft is at fault here? The other comments were for the situation in rocket league and some other games.

It's all pointless anyway seeing as it's not sony who's holding FFXIV back on this. Seeing as how we can already play with PC users. It's XBOX that has to get with the program and allow their users to play with everyone else. But with the way XBL works I dunno. I think Kosmos says it all perfectly more sound then I could.

Seems to be microsoft in this case, because Yoshi talked some time ago about discussions with the xbox team. http://www.polygon.com/e3/2016/6/17/...rosoft-e3-2016
In my opinion the discussion is about the one regulations they got for cross play, which forces developers to offer an option to switch "cross play" off for xbox users. This means, if ff14 would be ported that way, xbox users could choose if they want to play only with xbox or with other plattforms like pc or ps4 in this case. I don't think this is a good idea for mmo.

[ReplicaX]

You did read my older post in which i acknowledge that in my opinion ff14 is a different case and Microsoft is at fault here?

Then there is no need to even use Rocket League as an example.

The perfect example has and always will be XI. XIV needs exactly what XI got for exceptions to actually benefit a consumer to utilize a MS console. Otherwise, their direct competitor is the obvious choice.

The other comments were for the situation in rocket league and other games.

Yet MS ignored the Rocket League Devs through the majority of their development cycle about cross-platform. Just like the article you posted poorly reflects the current situation with PS4 <> XBone. So I will again let the Rocket League Devs speak for themselves:

As of March 2017, Psyonix is ready to enable this feature, but was still waiting for the console manufacturers to come to the required agreements to allow it.

[era1Ne]

Then there is no need to even use Rocket League as an example.

I didn't use rocket league as an example for the FF14 situations. I used it to proof the situation isn't black and white and post like this are proven wrong by facts.

Ridiculous. Everyone knows it's Microsoft holding the red tape up. Not Sony.

It all depends on the game and blame has to be given either sony, microsoft or both on a case by case basis. Maybe i should have made this more clear in the beginning. This was my answer to the post with the "red tape up" comment.

This is wrong according to the rocket league dev: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ro.../1100-6442025/ (at least for their game). FF14 could be a totally different matter.

And this one shortly after with this sentences

Now FF14 is an different matters and i do believe this is on microsoft, cause they don't want to bend their others rules for MMO imo. But in general, microsoft is more open to cross play between consoles then sony it seems. independend devs have no reason to lie here

The perfect example has and always will be XI. XIV needs exactly what XI got for exceptions to actually benefit a consumer to utilize a MS console. Otherwise, their direct competitor is the obvious choice.

No example is "perfect" in my opinion, because the decisions are usually made on an case by case base and many, many factors play a role here. Who leads the team? What situation are the plattform holders in? Does it make business sense for them? Just as three big example. I used this example early, but FF11 was on PC, PS2 and Xbox 360 and FF14 doesn't allow cross play between an Xbox and PS system. We can only speculate why this changed or why FF11 was even allowed to be such an good example for how gaming should be imo. Or in short, never trust in the past. Especially talking about business.

[Kosmos992k]

consoles are closed computer you are right, but they still need permission from Sony for everything.

No, they don't. You do not need Sony or PSN to browse online or use the browser. Please just stop, you're making yourself look foolish.

because ultimately the plattform owner says what is allowed and whats not. You can't just legaly create an PS4 game, app or access the PSN service without permission from Sony.

Accessing the Internet is utterly different to creating a signed executable that will run on a PS4, what are you trying to prove with such ridiculousness comparisons.

. On pc this is different and developers can do what they want with it. The sources are out there, but since you ignored the ones i posted already, i won't post others.

Good, your linked articles didn't help you at all, best to stop now.

As with every online game on ps there is a connection to PSN ID in FF14.

At most the launcher retrieves the current username aka PSN ID - from the PS4

You can't just "access the internet" as an third party on the consoles.

I, the owner of the console can go online without PSN to browse, so yes, I can. However, what you are not understanding is that the PS4 is open, if a developer creates a game that uses their own servers on the Net, PSN doesn't care, nor does Sony, and they don't require special permission to do this, it's allowed.

There are rules companies have to follow when they want to develop and release their product on a console.PC and Xbox cross play works aswell, as the developers said, but Xbox <-> PS not. If only the developer of the game said, why this doesn't work. oh wait they did You did read my older post in which i acknowledge that in my opinion ff14 is a different case and Microsoft is at fault here? The other comments were for the situation in rocket league and some other games.

You're not getting this are you?For games that operate within the walled gardens, the only way for cross play between PS and Xbox is to interconnect PSN and XBL to some degree, which requires contracts, agreements and software work to make happen. For a game, like FFXIV that does not operate within the walled gardens, nothing is required except for the game client to be able to talk to the game servers. That is also how Rocket League facilitated PS4 and PC cross platform play. Microsoft do not want that kind of cross play, they want to bring it within their walled garden so that they can control where their players go. Technically, Microsoft actively prevents Xbox from playing outside XBL. SOny does not actively prohibit playing outside PSN or PSPLus, they allow developers to decide how they want multiplayer to work, including reproving on of cross platform play - outside of PSN.

Seems to be microsoft in this case, because Yoshi talked some time ago about discussions with the xbox team. http://www.polygon.com/e3/2016/6/17/...rosoft-e3-2016
In my opinion the discussion is about the one regulations they got for cross play, which forces developers to offer an option to switch "cross play" off for xbox users. This means, if ff14 would be ported that way, xbox users could choose if they want to play only with xbox or with other plattforms like pc or ps4 in this case. I don't think this is a good idea for mmo.

Changed your tune now, but you just can't let go of the argument can you?