Raiders, why do you raid? None riders, why not?

[ApolloGenX]

..oh and I also don't like dealing with people who overuse the term "meta" for everything. It doesn't making video gaming sound scientific or complex- it's just irritating to me. It's become a generic term that gamers throw around because they either hear it used by others they think are "hard core" or they want to sound "hard core".

Or maybe I am just sensitive to it after years of seeing it.

[Kosmos992k]

I don't raid. I honestly don't like the group dynamics that the game's design enforces with static groups and the loot rules. I dislike the enforced schedule of raiding, my personal schedule is so changeable I cannot guarantee to be available, I dislike banging my head off a brick wall until it (the wall) breaks, I dislike stress and drama - which from personal experience are rife in raiding.

Knowing all of this I know that regardless of whether I am good enough, I would still be a poor addition to a raid team. So I wouldn't inflict myself on a raid group anyway. I might PUG some of the older raids, I might run some unsync'd with friends. Really though, I play to relax, and the inherent stress and pressure of 8 people learning the raid content and gearing is not compatible with that IMHO.

Some will say that the reason players don't raid is because they are not good enough. I'd counter by suggesting that perhaps those who choose not to raid are better, and know their limitations.

..oh and I also don't like dealing with people who overuse the term "meta" for everything. It doesn't making video gaming sound scientific or complex- it's just irritating to me. It's become a generic term that gamers throw around because they either hear it used by others they think are "hard core" or they want to sound "hard core".

Or maybe I am just sensitive to it after years of seeing it.

You're being meta sensitive over "meta"....how very meta of you.

**snip**
So, what do you do when you wind up with someone who just can't cut it in your group? If your group is coldly professional, you drop them and get someone else. But then, you're in a coldly professional group, which lacks a lot of the joy you get when you're on a team full of buddies hanging out and having fun. If your group is a bunch of warm buddies having fun, on the other hand, it can be very hard to tell that weakest link that they have to leave. Then there's the rare team of warm buddies that HAS no weakest link - that's the ideal everyone aspires to, but it is so, so rare...

That, I think, is why the raiding community is as small as it is. The bulk of them are all business and there to get the job done, having ruthlessly culled any members that happen to fall short of their expectations, with a scattered few teams of buddy groups who happen to be lucky enough to have a full team of skilled players. Neither set is very keen on the idea of welcoming new members - they have a team that works, and so they're going to stick to it. This means that any new teams have to assemble themselves from the morass of wannabe raiders, and doing so is a long and frustrating process that drives many potentials with legitimate talent to simply give up.

In my opinion this has been the case since at least November 2013, and the raid community has evolved and refined itself in the manner you describe since then. I remember a very impassioned topic here way back then about the negative impact that the static groups of raiding were having on friends, Free companies and other social groupings. I've seen nothing to contradict that old post over the years, and your description of how a raiding community refines itself simply reinforces that. It's not that anyone means for the negative impacts to happen, no one sets out to break friendships over gear drops or failed mechanics, but over time those things can poison relationships and break up friendships.

That said, perhaps that is in the nature of raiding and you're better off not raiding with friends? I don't know, it's harder looking from the outside in. I have several friends who used to raid and burned out, then left the game and I have seen FC members leave for no reason other than their raid group demanded it. So, raiding doesn't have a very good reputation with me.

[Nixxe]

..oh and I also don't like dealing with people who overuse the term "meta" for everything. It doesn't making video gaming sound scientific or complex- it's just irritating to me. It's become a generic term that gamers throw around because they either hear it used by others they think are "hard core" or they want to sound "hard core".

Or maybe I am just sensitive to it after years of seeing it.

This is a really weird thing to be annoyed by and a really weird reason for being annoyed by it.

[Istaru]

I used to raid. I raided, retired, got the itch again, raided some more, then retired again. Currently retired and most likely will stay that way.

Why don't I raid anymore? I'm tired of the gear treadmill and quite burnt out on that. I just don't care about gear anymore.

In the end, I no longer see the benefits of raiding as an acceptable use of my time.

[ManuelBravo]

Besides the story line, if any I see no real benefit. Weapons and gear are more of a glamor to me, and Relic based light farming would be the only reason if I go into one. Right now not that many reliable people.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Why I raid:
I initially tried it for the challenge, and discovered I loved it. I like to push myself for technical expertise, and as I don't really craft, gather, and became turned off by the relic, it was something for me to do, and do well. I remember the months I spent taking my own initiative to learn and clear T5, and in the end, the friends I made made me realize I inspired and taught them along the way. Our first T5 and T6 are precious memories for me, especially from a time I belonged to an FC that was largely very casual and not nearly as motivated as I was. I loved the Coil aesthetics, and the story; the only actual goal I had before Heavensward was to clear Coil, and I'm glad I did.

Why I'm less interested in raiding now:
I originally typed out my Gordias to Midas era story, but simply put: the shrinking endgame raider community on Goblin - and in part, the expendable sense of party member searching - began to alienate me. Many left for Gilgamesh (word of mouth saying the grass is greener over there), and what was left of our endgame raiding community became incredibly isolated, out of necessity. I'm in, but flying under the radar as I always seemed to. People know I'm good, know I'm helpful, but I don't seem like a top draft pick, nor are there many teams even looking for people these days. I am currently in a group again, a fun group of knuckleheads that struggle, but get the job done, and that's fine with me. The important part to me is we're together, victory or defeat.

Sitting out of Midas also gave me time to get back into PvP, and that's where I REALLY look for my challenge these days. PvP isn't scripted, mistakes can, will, and do happen, but aren't as damning, and it's an avenue I can both shine personally, and truly be part of a team, fixed or random. I make videos of it too, highlights, funny moments, and I've gradually begun writing guides. For me, this is the right fit, especially where raiding began to lose its appeal.

As the pitchfork-raising addendum: I bloody hate FFLogs. I mean, great tool for improvement if you use it for it, yes. But largely it's become an irritating talking point, and a circle jerk for the attention seekers. In fairness, I definitely care that I do a good job. That really is important to me. But I don't care if you do it faster. I don't care if I do it better. I don't care if X job or Y person is doing Z more dps/healing. . . I really only care that my team puts the work in and gets the job done, together. Spare me the personal skill/worth metrics. Until being one of the first/among the first to clear something matters for rewards, I could care less.

[Venjenz]

I raided in EQ1 up through the PoP era, when the power/usefulness of raid gear would last longer than the next xpac. MMOs aren't like that anymore, and every xpac mudflates the gear way beyond anything you ground out all those raids for, often in the first couple hours of new xpac questing. That's the model of selling xpacs, so why raid beyond seeing the content? Unlock boss, see boss, kill boss. No need to do it more than once, since the next xpac will gift you way better stuff for simply buying the box. RL concerns also cut into it, but even if I had unlimited free time, I'd only do raid content a couple times at best, and then do stuff like max tradeskills, level alt jobs, goof around with housing, etc.

Raiding is simply too time consuming, and has very little ROI when you know the next xpac will essentially invalidate it.

[Dzian]

Like my initial comment about people who think their accomplishments lose all value the moment the masses can do it easier than they did, I find such a mindset toxic to a positive gaming experience..

Really. many people would say the opposite is true. it's been proven that handing awards out to everyone devalues them in the long run... it's the same thing in every aspect of human life. the more common something is the less value it holds... and it's no different in games...

if content maintained it's challenges and rewards then players would rise up to the challenges if they wanted the rewards. the result there would be that the average skill of the player base would likely increase, and that can be seen as a very positive thing for the game and the entire community.

compare that to what we have now. where players can be terrible and still get everything. there's no strive for them to improve and that creates the huge skill gap that Yoshi has expressed concerns about. what the current system does is essentially promote laziness. why rise to the content when we can sit on our ass and let the content drop to us...... that massive skill gap is probably more toxic to a positive gaming environment because it actively rewards bad play and that skill gap is far more damaging to the game than keeping rewards behind a challenge that wouldn't get nerfed over time..

one could then argue that is this current environment that exists has fostered the " toxic no bonus" culture that exists within the game.. because of how large the existing skill gap between players is... and that impacts content on the whole. recent content such as zurvan normal for example is almost impossible to fail...

and because its impossible to fail there's no real satisfaction or reward for clearing it even at story level. and if the game isn't rewarding players won't stay playing.... which is again is not a positive gaming enviroment

[Shougun]

Surprised by the amount of "I don't raid because I don't want to/too time consuming", I mean I know raiding wasn't the large part of the player base but I didn't really know the ratio between other options like couldn't, didn't get to that point yet, and such.

Would be interesting to see SE run an official poll on end game content. I guess it's no surprise that a lot of MMOs are letting their raid scene down a little, if what is here is in a general sense (that people can, they just don't want to). Would love to see how many can but don't want to because of horizontal vs vertical, or if its literally "wouldn't do raiding no matter what you added to the game". Need more numbers - this is fun to read, go SE poll us, poll us really hard lol.

(Not suggesting to abandon the raid scene all together, just curious if a company used their numbers to reveal people's personal reasons why they played certain ways - we already know most don't raid).

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Really. many people would say the opposite is true. it's been proven that handing awards out to everyone devalues them in the long run... it's the same thing in every aspect of human life. the more common something is the less value it holds... and it's no different in games...

if content maintained it's challenges and rewards then players would rise up to the challenges if they wanted the rewards. the result there would be that the average skill of the player base would likely increase, and that can be seen as a very positive thing for the game and the entire community.

compare that to what we have now. where players can be terrible and still get everything. there's no strive for them to improve and that creates the huge skill gap that Yoshi has expressed concerns about. what the current system does is essentially promote laziness. why rise to the content when we can sit on our ass and let the content drop to us...... that massive skill gap is probably more toxic to a positive gaming environment because it actively rewards bad play and that skill gap is far more damaging to the game than keeping rewards behind a challenge that wouldn't get nerfed over time..

one could then argue that is this current environment that has fostered the "no bonus" culture that exists within the game.. because of how large the existing skill gap between players is... and that impacts content on the whole. recent content such as zurvan normal for example is almost impossible to fail...

and because its impossible to fail there's no real satisfaction or reward for clearing it even at story level. and if the game isn't rewarding players won't stay playing.... which is again is not a positive gaming enviroment

This is really well put, and I'm glad you touched on that fact. In order for the community, and thus the game to truly grow, this has to change. I have hopes for Stormblood, but they are admittedly low.