PLD synergy issues

[dragonseth07]

Lyth has the right of it. You can't just put more defense on PLD and expect it to not be useless or necessary. That's why you say SE is pushing for them all to be the same. They pretty much have to be.

[ChloeGrace]

SE is pushing for them all to be the same. They pretty much have to be.

This would be a horrible cop out on the part of the devs. What is the point of even having more than one tank job if there are no appreciable differences other than cosmetics?

[Sqwall]

So I see the running trend here that everyone is in agreement that PLD needs a simple DPS increase to make it a "viable" tank. Is this really the solution? Just throw more DPS at the class to "help" it hold hate. PLD has always been a shyte damage dealing tank.

I think this is the worst idea that SE can decide if the plan to go that route. MAKE IT UNIQUE!!!!

DRK IS UNIQUE!
WAR IS UNIQUE!
PLD could be unique if they decided it needed something the other tanks have.

DRK plays on the edge of HIGH dps and killing itself, sounds fun!
WAR plays like a murderous psycho with unrelenting DPS with the ability to change stance mid fight and WRECK face.
PLD feels like a insurance adjuster with a problem with finding it's inner voice to put up a fight.

[Sqwall]

Hypothetically I WISH PLD had a buff when shield swipe was used that gave you thorn damage or something. Every time a mob hit you they took 10-20 potency or something and your enmity is increased further just by blocking essentially. This would follow the mantra of the job much more closely then just a small damage boost and a crap pacification bonus THAT DOSEN'T WORK ON BOSSES! Let alone Flash NEVER BLINDING BOSSES either. WAKE UP SE! Whats the point of these skills if the don't even help you out for what they weren't meant to serve for. They should help in ALL fights.

[Lyth]

I think there are two issues here, which are separate from each other. The first is playstyle, and the second is raid functionality.

PLD's playstyle is a function of several factors. It forms the foundation of our present tanking model. PLD's toolkit contains several skills that are essential for every tank (such as Provoke). It's also generally the first tanking experience that players are exposed to. As a result, every other tank job's identity is constructed by creating flavour differences between it's own toolkit and that of PLD's. The flipside is that PLD tends not to have a distinct identity of its own.

This is also a function of the lore behind the job. I think that a lot of people expect PLD to function as some sort of holy knight, in the same vein as the Ishgardian knights, Cecil from FF4, or Agrias/Orlandu from FFT. However, that was the route that DRK took, functioning as a knight-errant who uses a mix of spells and swordplay to fight corruption. PLDs are derived from bodyguards to the sultanate. The combat set is not designed to be flashy. Their job is to intercept blows and rout out intruders. If you want to give PLD an identity, you need to expand on these points.

The elements are there, for the most part. If you play PLD in PvP (where it's arguably the strongest tank choice), it not only has an identity, but it feels fun to play. It's strength doesn't come out of its mitigation (people are usually after softer targets), but instead from your ability to rescue teammates from trouble and interfere with your opponents attacks. I suppose another factor at work here is that you have more time to make use of skills like Clemency and Stoneskin, while the cast times attached to these skills in PvE often are prohibitive.

While PLD's playstyle determines whether people enjoy playing it, raid functionality influences what job you end up to bringing to raid. This is where issues like damage output, raid buffs, and mitigation come into play. This is a much bigger problem. Not everyone needs to like PLD. But everyone who likes playing PLD should be capable of raiding on it, without feeling like they have to switch. Likewise, people who flat out dislike PLD's playstyle shouldn't feel like they're forced on to the job to meet the mitigation requirements of a fight.

I can understand that people may feel that making PLD stronger defensively and weaker offensively may give it a better sense of identity, but this really isn't the case. It just leads to either an underpowered or an overpowered job that still lacks an identity.

[whiteblade89]

Hmm if your talkin about dungeons Ive never had someone say anything to me about being pali.

I have a feeling OP was referring more to raiding and trials rather than dungeons. Every class is viable in dungeons and can clear easily. I think a minority portion of the community prefers not to have them in harder content like primals and raids because of the lack of dps that PLD has. I can't confirm this because Ive never run into groups who turn PLD's away. Its no secret that they're the lowest damage of the three tanks. Then again, I'm not in the "hardcore" community. I join a lot of pf groups to farm primals and I don't do savage raids. But in the hardcore raiding community, they probably suffer more for the aforementioned lack of dps.

[ADVSS]

I have a feeling OP was referring more to raiding and trials rather than dungeons. Every class is viable in dungeons and can clear easily. I think a minority portion of the community prefers not to have them in harder content like primals and raids because of the lack of dps that PLD has. I can't confirm this because Ive never run into groups who turn PLD's away. Its no secret that they're the lowest damage of the three tanks. Then again, I'm not in the "hardcore" community. I join a lot of pf groups to farm primals and I don't do savage raids. But in the hardcore raiding community, they probably suffer more for the aforementioned lack of dps.

its still vaguely noticible in dungeons, but not by too much, i still think its unfair thay got little easy method to dps pack mobs, but its not going to make or break a df, however all of these points above:

I think there are two issues here, which are separate from each other. The first is playstyle, and the second is raid functionality.

PLD's playstyle is a function of several factors. It forms the foundation of our present tanking model. PLD's toolkit contains several skills that are essential for every tank (such as Provoke). It's also generally the first tanking experience that players are exposed to. As a result, every other tank job's identity is constructed by creating flavour differences between it's own toolkit and that of PLD's. The flipside is that PLD tends not to have a distinct identity of its own.

This is also a function of the lore behind the job. I think that a lot of people expect PLD to function as some sort of holy knight, in the same vein as the Ishgardian knights, Cecil from FF4, or Agrias/Orlandu from FFT. However, that was the route that DRK took, functioning as a knight-errant who uses a mix of spells and swordplay to fight corruption. PLDs are derived from bodyguards to the sultanate. The combat set is not designed to be flashy. Their job is to intercept blows and rout out intruders. If you want to give PLD an identity, you need to expand on these points.

The elements are there, for the most part. If you play PLD in PvP (where it's arguably the strongest tank choice), it not only has an identity, but it feels fun to play. It's strength doesn't come out of its mitigation (people are usually after softer targets), but instead from your ability to rescue teammates from trouble and interfere with your opponents attacks. I suppose another factor at work here is that you have more time to make use of skills like Clemency and Stoneskin, while the cast times attached to these skills in PvE often are prohibitive.

While PLD's playstyle determines whether people enjoy playing it, raid functionality influences what job you end up to bringing to raid. This is where issues like damage output, raid buffs, and mitigation come into play. This is a much bigger problem. Not everyone needs to like PLD. But everyone who likes playing PLD should be capable of raiding on it, without feeling like they have to switch. Likewise, people who flat out dislike PLD's playstyle shouldn't feel like they're forced on to the job to meet the mitigation requirements of a fight.

I can understand that people may feel that making PLD stronger defensively and weaker offensively may give it a better sense of identity, but this really isn't the case. It just leads to either an underpowered or an overpowered job that still lacks an identity.

I have to agree with Lyth this statement is spot on. I am okay with pld/drk dealing less damage, but would it hurt for them to offer some kind of damage buff for overall raid comps? What is most unfair for pld, identity exvluded, is how those few factors make it much less desirable than they other two which sucks that it comes down to sacrificing the weak turtle tank identity, but maybe a little of that would have to be sacrificed to give it a chance, not to be dropped

[Sqwall]

So let me get this straight everyone is fine with how DRK is designed?
Skills.
Cooldown skills?
Role in a raid/dungeon?
General understanding of the classes playstyle?

I hear more and more people saying they like the idea/playstyle of DRK. But PLD still seems to get the short end of the stick

[Lambdafish]

PLD's toolkit contains several skills that are essential for every tank (such as Provoke)

This is where I am curious about stormblood. With the way I envision the cross-role system, it completely rips current PLD apart, they will lose provoke, rampart, convaelsense, flash(?), and if I am correct - stoneskin, and protect. That is 6 skills that could be replaced with more interesting ones, and they would really need to in order to rebuild PLD as a more functional tank.

[whiteblade89]

So let me get this straight everyone is fine with how DRK is designed?

There's always a difference of opinions, but personally drk is my favorite tank. For dungeons, it's great for mass pulls and has the feeling of organized chaos. Love it.
However, in raids and trials it lacks quite a bit unless it's MT. I say this from personal experience having been OT in trials before. You give nothing back to the party as a whole (if I'm incorrect on this, feel free to correct me). It's fun to play as OT because you get to use blood weapon more often which helps it's overall damage output. But I don't think anyone would argue that it lacks raid utility, much like MNK.
Hell, PLD at least brings a group-wide shield to the table.