PLD synergy issues

[Sqwall]

I have been playing paladin since 2.0. At first I felt it was the best tank due to the mitigation it offered. I really had the job down really well with popping my CD's to give me an edge and help out the healers. Leveled WHM just to get stoneskin. I HATE WHM! I really miss the 2.0 pally since 3.0 came out.

I really think what SE added for the PLD in 3.0 was just to appease the crowd hungry for DPS and OT ability. I don't understand the idea behind a PLD doing "High" damage. My understanding behind the class is high mitigation at the cost of DPS. I don't feel I need to due insane amounts of DPS to hold hate. Isn't that what stances are for? The current state of the tanking community sneers at the PLD due to the DPS it brings. And automatically think it can't hold hate. And part of this is true mostly in large group pulls due to our lack of AOE.
Circle of Scorn is TERRIBLE compared to Steel Cyclone + Internal Release+ Berserk+ Unchained combo.

[bswpayton]

I have been playing paladin since 2.0. At first I felt it was the best tank due to the mitigation it offered. I really had the job down really well

Hmm if your talkin about dungeons Ive never had someone say anything to me about being pali.

[whiteblade89]

Hmm if your talkin about dungeons Ive never had someone say anything to me about being pali.

I have a feeling OP was referring more to raiding and trials rather than dungeons. Every class is viable in dungeons and can clear easily. I think a minority portion of the community prefers not to have them in harder content like primals and raids because of the lack of dps that PLD has. I can't confirm this because Ive never run into groups who turn PLD's away. Its no secret that they're the lowest damage of the three tanks. Then again, I'm not in the "hardcore" community. I join a lot of pf groups to farm primals and I don't do savage raids. But in the hardcore raiding community, they probably suffer more for the aforementioned lack of dps.

[ADVSS]

I have a feeling OP was referring more to raiding and trials rather than dungeons. Every class is viable in dungeons and can clear easily. I think a minority portion of the community prefers not to have them in harder content like primals and raids because of the lack of dps that PLD has. I can't confirm this because Ive never run into groups who turn PLD's away. Its no secret that they're the lowest damage of the three tanks. Then again, I'm not in the "hardcore" community. I join a lot of pf groups to farm primals and I don't do savage raids. But in the hardcore raiding community, they probably suffer more for the aforementioned lack of dps.

its still vaguely noticible in dungeons, but not by too much, i still think its unfair thay got little easy method to dps pack mobs, but its not going to make or break a df, however all of these points above:

I think there are two issues here, which are separate from each other. The first is playstyle, and the second is raid functionality.

PLD's playstyle is a function of several factors. It forms the foundation of our present tanking model. PLD's toolkit contains several skills that are essential for every tank (such as Provoke). It's also generally the first tanking experience that players are exposed to. As a result, every other tank job's identity is constructed by creating flavour differences between it's own toolkit and that of PLD's. The flipside is that PLD tends not to have a distinct identity of its own.

This is also a function of the lore behind the job. I think that a lot of people expect PLD to function as some sort of holy knight, in the same vein as the Ishgardian knights, Cecil from FF4, or Agrias/Orlandu from FFT. However, that was the route that DRK took, functioning as a knight-errant who uses a mix of spells and swordplay to fight corruption. PLDs are derived from bodyguards to the sultanate. The combat set is not designed to be flashy. Their job is to intercept blows and rout out intruders. If you want to give PLD an identity, you need to expand on these points.

The elements are there, for the most part. If you play PLD in PvP (where it's arguably the strongest tank choice), it not only has an identity, but it feels fun to play. It's strength doesn't come out of its mitigation (people are usually after softer targets), but instead from your ability to rescue teammates from trouble and interfere with your opponents attacks. I suppose another factor at work here is that you have more time to make use of skills like Clemency and Stoneskin, while the cast times attached to these skills in PvE often are prohibitive.

While PLD's playstyle determines whether people enjoy playing it, raid functionality influences what job you end up to bringing to raid. This is where issues like damage output, raid buffs, and mitigation come into play. This is a much bigger problem. Not everyone needs to like PLD. But everyone who likes playing PLD should be capable of raiding on it, without feeling like they have to switch. Likewise, people who flat out dislike PLD's playstyle shouldn't feel like they're forced on to the job to meet the mitigation requirements of a fight.

I can understand that people may feel that making PLD stronger defensively and weaker offensively may give it a better sense of identity, but this really isn't the case. It just leads to either an underpowered or an overpowered job that still lacks an identity.

I have to agree with Lyth this statement is spot on. I am okay with pld/drk dealing less damage, but would it hurt for them to offer some kind of damage buff for overall raid comps? What is most unfair for pld, identity exvluded, is how those few factors make it much less desirable than they other two which sucks that it comes down to sacrificing the weak turtle tank identity, but maybe a little of that would have to be sacrificed to give it a chance, not to be dropped

[Sqwall]

Furthermore, I feel that SE needs to get more creative with the rotations. I mean they did design the game knowing that would be the rotations players would use. 1,2,3 and sometimes 4. is a joke SE. Give the class some utility that NO other classes get then if your going to make us use that crap rotation for max enmity.

Dump the STR reduction RoH gives and give a buff to PLD of +10% shield block chance with a soft cap at 50%. It would give my shield some actual use on a 1v1 scenario.

Goring Blade Dot is refreshed on Circle of Scorn and the DOT spreads to mobs with the 4th mob + losing potency by 10 respectively. Circle of Scorn DOT loses no potency for any mobs.

Lastly Shield Lob now attacks multiple targets with max of 3 with potency dropping 10 per mob.

[Ultimatecalibur]

And part of this is true mostly in large group pulls due to our lack of AOE.
Circle of Scorn is TERRIBLE compared to Steel Cyclone + Internal Release+ Berserk+ Unchained combo.

Uhm, you are doing it wrong.

CoS->Flashx2->GB combo->Flashx2->GB combo target 2-> Flash -> GB combo target 3 -> rotate GB combos until only 2 targets then do an RA combo until GB needs to be reapplied is the Paladin's AoE rotation. Doing this the Paladin can keep blind up for a full 21 seconds and should have not problem holding hate.

[ADVSS]

hates not really the issue i dont think, i think its poor easy aoe damage like the other 2, i think it will get addressed in 4.0 honestly. The tank synergy is actually a problem with all 3 of them(moreso drk/pld comps) hope they really address that one too. debates like beating a dead horse on the OF though

[Ultimatecalibur]

hates not really the issue i dont think, i think its poor easy aoe damage like the other 2, i think it will get addressed in 4.0 honestly.

Simply turning Flash into a 60 potency x10 enmity Holiest of Holy at some level would fix the AoE damage problem.

The tank synergy is actually a problem with all 3 of them(moreso drk/pld comps) hope they really address that one too. debates like beating a dead horse on the OF though

A fair amount of the Drk/Pld synergy problem is that both War/Pld and War/Drk have better synergy with the current only other source of the slash damage up debuff. Since Nin gets a damage boost from being in a party with a War, replacing either Drk or Pld in a Drk/Pld comp is a net gain. Hopefully Samurai can change that.

[Rongway]

Hopefully Samurai can change that.

It won't.

The samurai will be a pure solo DPS job combining attacks to deal massive damage. The overall battle system will consist of multiple far-eastern swordplay techniques from the realm of Hingashi, such as Iai.

Expect it not to have any notable party buffing capabilities.

[Ultimatecalibur]

It won't.

Expect it not to have any notable party buffing capabilities.

That says nothing about Samurai not applying a version of the Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge Slashing resist down debuff as part of its combo attacks.

Part of the reason Nin has better synergy with War/Pld and War/Drk than Drk/Pld is that Dancing Edge is not actually part of the Ninja's optimal dps rotation while Storm's eye is part of the Warrior's. Ninja's would rather use Aeolian Edge than Dancing Edge.

If the Sam naturally applies a slashing debuff with its optimal dps rotation (just like how the Dragoon always applies the piercing debuff with Disembowel due to always wanting to keep Chaos Thrust's DoT up) then War/Pld and War/Drk would not naturally be better than Pld/Drk.