Lackluster Graphics in FFXIV

[Wenceslas]

When the cryengine will be able to render a MMORPG game that looks even remotely overally better than FFXIV, then you'd have any ground about it's superiority. So far there's none, and even between future games, there's none that looks even nearly as good.

Here a MMORPG WIP (certainly "kingdoms")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADtUxDjGnjQ (00:34 to 00:46)

Looks kinda cool isn't it ? (and even if you said it's downscaled, theres so much more shaders and effect.)
(and yeah, I know what you'll say : this is not the final product, it'll certainly not run like this with 1000 characters, so the graphics will be downscaled on final version. And you may be right. We can just wait and see...)

So finnaly, the only way we disagree, is that you think CTEngine is well optimised and me not. Like you, I really like FFXIV graphics (don't really like water, but water are animated refractive texture with normals and specular map, so if they improve it, it's obvious that it'll take a lot more on GPU and i'll will certainly/obviously ram.), but I just don't believe that it need a this huge GPU for just activate some little effect like ambiant occlusion or DoF.

[Abriael]

You want a link? OK here's one.

A link to an official source, not to some random forum wrings stating an opinion that the industry proved wrong again and again (for instance with Killzone 2, look up on it). Like it or not, but the practice of prerendering demos of elements of demons and then not specifying what's "in engine" and what's prerendered is very, very widespread in the industry.

SE may have strove for perfection, but the lighting makes what they've done look tacky. I give them a C+ for effort. I'll say it again and again... Water reflection and proper shading will not tax the system like Ambient Occlusion does. I'd bet the PS3's limitations have something to do with SE's decision to also limit what PC's are going to render - this is not a good excuse, however... There's no reason the graphic engine for the PC version couldn't have a few features that render the lighting a little differently.

You have no idea of the development resources needed to implement ambient occlusion as opposed to water reflections and more dynamic shading (that for instance requires placing every single light source manually, in the whole game world, as opposed to a single engine toggle). Also, you have no idea of the hardware impact those features would have in an high-poly environment as FFXIV. You cannot compare that impact with that of other MMORPGs with MANY less polygons displayed.
You may not be aware, but both water reflection and shadows directly depend from the polyginal display of the objects reflected or that cast the shadow. Ambient Occlusion, as a matter of fact, does not.
This means that those effects would have a MUCH higher impact on hardware resources on a high polygon environment than in any MMORPG with a much lower polycount.

Can't explain it clearer than this, really. Either you get it, or you don't.

If you give them a C+ for effort, I wonder what you'd give to ALL the other MMOs that look way worse.

Just because it's the best looking MMO, doesn't mean it couldn't be a little better, does it?

Go tell it to ALL the other developers that made MMOs that look way worse.

Here a MMORPG WIP (certainly "kingdoms")
Looks kinda cool isn't it ?

Considering that it doesn't show any characters or even mobiles or anything else than a few scenes from quite afar, I don't find it very impressive, especially compared to what we have right now in FXIV.

Past MMORPGs have actually shown better scenes.

[BelgianRofl]

^0:43 of that video shows what a game will look like when it's low-poly, low-res textures, but has real shading

[Abriael]

^0:43 of that video shows what a game will look like when it's low-poly, low-res textures, but has real shading

Without any character/mobile on an undisclosed system, from afar. Even WoW shown scenes that look as good/better than that, out of context.

It doesn't even compare to FFXIV.

[BelgianRofl]

more dynamic shading (that for instance requires placing every single light source manually, in the whole game world, as opposed to a single engine toggle).

I stopped reading your post after this statement.

[Abriael]

I stopped reading your post after this statement.

Too bad, because the whole post proves you wrong (selective reading mh?). And you may not like the statement, but it's true. Dynamic lights need to be placed,and even more so manually tweaked (or you'll see stuff like out of place shadows that pass through the environment and horrible glitches like that, that are quite well known in MMOs that include that kind of effect) or you think they magically appear by themselves?

You seem to have a very, very simplified idea of game development. Something like "oh yeah, all effects are just a toggle, add a line of code so that they are enabled and they magically appear".

I'm sure many developers wish you were right

I'll give you a little "educational" piece of advice. To distinguish between effects that require just a toggle, and effects that normally require much more work, go to your NVIDIA or ATI control panel, and check what you can force on the engine. Those are the effects that can be simply "toggled" in most engines out there.
It's not a 100% comprehensive list, but it's a very good place to start. You'll notice that Ambient occlusion is there. Reflective Water or dynamic lighting are not.

[Wenceslas]

Without any character/mobile on an undisclosed system, from afar. Even WoW shown scenes that look as good/better than that, out of context.

It doesn't even compare to FFXIV.

That why I said "(and yeah, I know what you'll say : this is not the final product, it'll certainly not run like this with 1000 characters, so the graphics will be downscaled on final version. And you may be right. We can just wait and see...)
"
And well.. theres no characters.. maybe cause it's a WIP. But here's not the subject.
I'm glad if you've understand that i'm not yelling that "FFIXV have horrible graphics" or stupids things like this.
I just think a little optimisation should let the dev add one or two more effect. Crystal tool is prefectly capable to do it.

[Abriael]

And well.. theres no characters.. maybe cause it's a WIP. But here's not the subject.
I'm glad if you've understand that i'm not yelling that "FFIXV have horrible graphics" or stupids things like this.
I just think a little optimisation should let the dev add one or two more effect. Crystal tool is prefectly capable to do it.

What I'm saying is not that the engine cannot be optimized further (NO engine cannot be optimized further, in fact we're running on a quite advanced version of the CTE compared to older games, as much as versions of every third party commercial engines continue to be released), What I'm saying is that the engine is much more optimized that people would say, and there's really no tools to state that it's not, as no other comparable game (MMORPG with the same graphical quality) has been released or even officially announced.

As I said before, it's very possible that the engine will be improved further down the line. It happens with every MMORPG out there (that has a decently active development), but this doesn't imply that the engine isn't as optimized as possible for the *current* time.

[BelgianRofl]

There's not even 1000 characters logged into an FFXIV server at any given time. At most there are like 100 Characters on screen, all of which cast shadows, and all of which have different sets of gear and armor. Is it so much to ask SE to make the landscape cast shadows as well? Easy Peezy Japaneezy!

[Wenceslas]

What I'm saying is not that the engine cannot be optimized further (NO engine cannot be optimized further, in fact we're running on a quite advanced version of the CTE compared to older games, as much as versions of every third party commercial engines continue to be released), What I'm saying is that the engine is much more optimized that people would say, and there's really no tools to state that it's not, as no other comparable game (MMORPG with the same graphical quality) has been released or even officially announced.

As I said before, it's very possible that the engine will be improved further down the line. It happens with every MMORPG out there (that has a decently active development), but this doesn't imply that the engine isn't as optimized as possible for the *current* time.

Oh yeah. I agree with you.