Concept: Heavy Machinist Tank

[Mysticdraggon]

DeviantArt Link: http://magicdragonmage.deviantart.co...0%3A1491180189

would really like it if i could get some feedback particularly on the artwork and detail. i did not know how to exactly capture the FFXIV theme, but i tried my best while also adding a Steampunk theme. i think it fits well with the class.

anyway, just open to any suggestion as to what to add before i do some digital art.

Popular Subjects so far:

Q: "Minigun = ranged DPS?"

A: i know that when you see a giant mini-gun, you think "long range, high damage DPS".

this is not the case. the classe's basic attacks would have mid-range suppression-based effects with average DPS a tank would normally have. effects such as "slow" and "heavy" upon an enemy while the player is shooting will ensure that the class will keep a fair distance from agro-enemies while doing so.

[Jpec07]

It's a neat piece of artwork, but my brain is breaking while I try to figure out how it would work mechanically. The minigun suggests high damage output, but I don't see how easily that could be balanced with the need to mitigate incoming damage.

I'm also shuddering at the parts list that would be needed for a BSM to make those weapons. MCH weapons are already extremely complicated.

[Mysticdraggon]

-good question-

thats when things get creative. the gatling gun would have average damage, but also place suppression-based status upon enemies.

for example, one basic attack will empty a magazine upon a target and place a "slow" or "heavy" effect on it. this attack will last for short period of time, so the player is not required to hold down the ability to fire. just select it and the attack automatically fires the entire magazine.

players can interrupt this attack by selecting a reload ability, which resets any previous weapon-based ability. the ability will also work like a combo ability only after the entire magazine is depleted, which will result in a much faster reload animation. once a target is eliminated, the ability will automatically activate and the reload animation will be much faster.

[Shurrikhan]

I just don't understand how the minigun, in the hands of a tank of all roles, isn't going to be knocked aside from even the most mild attacks or weight put against it. It's clearly too large to be handled manageably in CQB. It makes about as much sense as a parry-tank running on a toothpick (or even a rapier, given the size of boss weapons).

I also have to ask, why a tank at all, especially given that XIV's latency prevents most melee from reliably attacking moving targets? Why put this kind of armor or role on a ranged heavy weaponry class?

How is that statement in any way any kind of reason to prevent such a job in that role? BRD/MCH have no problems hitting targets while moving when their casting stance isn't on, this job would be no different albeit likely have a reduce ranged in comparison (10-15y range perhaps).

"Melee," I said. As a tank, you position for melee, yet the only advantage for being a ranged tank is to reduce auto-attack damage intervals taken over a given fight which can only be done by kiting, which in turn makes it difficult for melee to hit the targets at all.

Welcome to pretty much every animation in the entire game then.

Hence the "yet more"...

[Mysticdraggon]

snip

so to explain, the weapon DOES NOT work as you would expect it to.

i understand that when you see a minigun, you think high dps long range weapon capable of mowing down enemies like you see in movies or other games.

that is not the case. please refer to the second post already answering this question.

basically, it would have average DPS with suppression-based mechanics that slow down and enemies. as for the range, it would be tough to code, but im thinking about bullet damage drop and accuracy drop depending on how far the enemy is.

i was also thinking of adding push-back and stun mechanics so that even mid range would makes sense. probably in the form of concussion grenades, flash-bangs and heavy rounds to force back enemies.

[Mysticdraggon]

so i did not know that BB code was available on this forum, so there you have it. you are no longer required to visit the link.

[Shurrikhan]

so to explain, the weapon DOES NOT work as you would expect it to.

i understand that when you see a minigun, you think high dps long range weapon capable of mowing down enemies like you see in movies or other games.

that is not the case. please refer to the second post already answering this question.

I never said it was, nor did I imply that I felt it niched as a DPS due to its damage rate. I referred only to its obvious weight and unweildiness. Your second post only answers a small part of my questions, insofar as this class having on demand Heavy, which can mitigate some of the melee's concerns for one particular focus target at a time. However, I felt those questions were enough for the time being. As I understand it, your class uses channeled, effect-sustaining attacks that produce reduce recast times upon ending (not triggering) that are reduced if the channel is completed. However, for that duration one is locked to a single target. How long are these channels? Will this negatively affect target-rotating for appropriately spreading enmity, or will that whole function be blanketed instead by AoE usage, such as through your proposed grenades?

[rxnin]

I'm very intrigued with this idea. Sounds like it will be fun to play if executed correctly. Animations should have various types of cannon attacks etc. Maybe this tank can be a specialist in AOEs. We'll call it...WAR MACHINE.

[Mysticdraggon]

snip

in that case, im open to any suggestions.

AOE sounds great along with the concept in the second post.

i do understand that target rotation would be difficult. which is why i think it would be smart to add a ceasefire ability along with a reload ability. this would pause the active timer of the last used primary-weapon-based ability (basic fire) so that the player may rotate targets and continue the timer later.

i would not be so concerned for the shape and weight of the weapon itself. i trust in the animators to find a way around its details.

[Shurrikhan]

Maybe this tank can be a specialist in AOEs. We'll call it...WAR MACHINE.

If XIV thus far is anything to go by, any specialist will always be taken for certain fights and banned from the rest, unless gimmicks specifically force its viability (as with the LB gauge).

i would not be so concerned for the shape and weight of the weapon itself. i trust in the animators to find a way around its details.

It's not that I distrust the animators to find ways around the details. It's that I trust that they will (disregard all obvious physics issues in favor of nice, quick, responsive animations and zero interruption while the minigun would have been battered about), leading to yet more unrealistic animations and weapon usage.

in that case, im open to any suggestions.

i do understand that target rotation would be difficult. which is why i think it would be smart to add a ceasefire ability along with a reload ability. this would pause the active timer of the last used primary-weapon-based ability (basic fire) so that the player may rotate targets and continue the timer later.

Thus far we have many, many weaponskills that are in appearance multi-striking while in actuality being mere single strikes with added application delay. Alternatively, you could just use mobile cast times in the form of channeling, striking many times over the duration where all share the same crit calculation and simply divide the snapshot value over each hit as to reduce cost. In either case, though, unless your channel times are to exceed the GCD, I don't see a reason not to use the typical GCD. By using the GCD, you'd have the exact same freedom of rotation as others (physical in the first case, casters in the second), and the exact same weave opportunities. I'm not saying that should be the goal, but unless you have some reason to compromise those (e.g. it doesn't make sense to be able to toss a grenade while still channeling fire from the mini-gun).

In my opinion, the class would work far better in a game that isn't target-locked, allows for projectile trajectory, and has a whole lot better netcode and/or server proximity. As far as jobs go that would be obviously cheated by issues in execution, designs like these seem among the most vulnerable. Either the benefits and distinctions one would intuitively assume the class would possess are instead just skins for homogenized combat, or it faces additional issues that will kill the job for most of its players.

:: That's true of most of my own job designs as well—which is why most of my posting involves smashing my head against the undermechanical limitations wall of the game in the hopes that my suggestions resound enough to be heard by the workers opposite or dent it enough to leave some thin space for something worth building upon—but short of such improvements, we work between very tight walls when trying to come up with something meaningfully new. I'm sorry if I've come off hypercritical. I just fear that yours is particularly new and refreshing, and thereby particularly dependent on certain reforms not to be particularly screwed. For these reasons I'd recommend trying on for size each of the norms, or what the job would be if homogenized and how well you can still convey its feel in those confines. Where it most limits you, consider then what mechanics would re-allow for your job as you envisioned it. Sadly, those parts will be as much the task as the job design itself.