Stop Making Should-Be Achievement Gear.."Optional Gear"

[Talraen]

In regards to seasonal event items this is something that is a rather large issue, whatever arguments you want to make for unique mounts, emotes, glamour items and recolors that are placed in the Mogstation are entirely different as you can make the case that while those items were developed for the game they were never actually implemented in the live version, meaning there never was an alternative way to obtain them.

In the case of seasonal event items however they are items that players with active subscriptions were able to acquire during their initial release and prior to the Mogstation were available annually upon the return of the event for those who may have missed them the first time. Now the case is that the only way to obtain those items if you were unsubbed or not playing at the time of the event is to pay a cash amount that may very well be equal or greater than your monthly subscription in addition to the amount you have to pay to play the game to begin with.

So yeah suddenly being charged for something you didn't used to before on top of a recurring service fee is a pretty big deal.

So if a company ever offers something for free, it can never decide to charge for it? How about raising prices? Is that allowed, or is it a problem because we're paying more than we used to before?

And I'm sorry if having "literally no other alternatives" doesn't convince me. The "compromise" you suggest would completely cut the legs off of whatever revenue stream Square Enix is trying to create. One of the main reasons for charging for old event items is to incentivize players to stay subscribed. Your proposal would remove both that incentive and the incentive to buy older items, effectively making the whole thing moot.

I understand that this system costs players money and the previous system did not. I too would prefer if everything was free. Who wouldn't? But you're taking a stand on principle when the debate is purely economic. Your argument boils down to "I don't want to pay for this" - which, again, is an economic argument. So make that argument.

If you're not going to unsubscribe if they offer optional items you won't pay for, then what exactly is your angle here? If the items are optional, and you won't buy them, so what?

[Ryel]

So if a company ever offers something for free, it can never decide to charge for it? How about raising prices? Is that allowed, or is it a problem because we're paying more than we used to before?

You're misrepresenting the point.

If a company goes "This is our service and this is what is included in our service charge" and then starts taking items out of that package for no reason than to charge separately for them you can be sure there will be consumer blowback.

In fact its the exact reason that when cable, internet, and phone providers update their packages for new subscribers they dont go back and ninja the customers on existing plans, they keep them as they were for previous subscribers, because thats what they signed up for (also contracts but y'know).

So can they decide to charge for it? Sure, they can.

Most companies however deem the practice unethical (lol they don't want to deal with the blowback) so they don't do it and consumers have the right to voice an opinion if they disagree with the service.

And I'm sorry if having "literally no other alternatives" doesn't convince me. The "compromise" you suggest would completely cut the legs off of whatever revenue stream Square Enix is trying to create. One of the main reasons for charging for old event items is to incentivize players to stay subscribed. Your proposal would remove both that incentive and the incentive to buy older items, effectively making the whole thing moot.

Except that it costs them nothing on the development end to re-issue annual event items, I'm not talking about events that were deemed exclusive like the "Lightning Returns", Dragon Quest, or Yokai Watch crossovers.

Allowing players to re-obtain seasonal event items in-game was something this game allowed before the Mogstation, it was a feature of the game one could count under what their subscription covered. Then when the next year came around suddenly the vendors no longer provided those items and you could "look forward" to them being charged for an additional fee on the Mogstation.

I understand that this system costs players money and the previous system did not. I too would prefer if everything was free. Who wouldn't? But you're taking a stand on principle when the debate is purely economic. Your argument boils down to "I don't want to pay for this" - which, again, is an economic argument. So make that argument.

If you're not going to unsubscribe if they offer optional items you won't pay for, then what exactly is your angle here? If the items are optional, and you won't buy them, so what?

You're once again misrepresenting the point, either that or you simply don't understand it (which is okay).

The argument isn't "I dont want to pay for this!"

The argument is "Why am I suddenly paying an additional fee for something I didn't have to before?"

Am i required to buy items off of the Mogstation? of course not, hence why i don't.

But if I'm paying a monthly fee for something and over time have been led to expect certain things where included under the umbrella of that monthly fee, as a consumer it is within my right to disagree or voice an opinionm if the company wants to remove some of those items and charge me additionally for them instead.

You're saying "well speak with your wallet" but i dont play the game for the items on the mogstation so outside of not buying them already (which i dont) unsubbing wont really say anything.

[Kuroneko_Jutah]

Except that it costs them nothing on the development end to re-issue annual event items,

How do you know this? Are you on the FFXIV development team?

[Ryel]

How do you know this? Are you on the FFXIV development team?

Nope, don't need to be.

The assets were already created and budgeted or they wouldn't have been in the previous year's event, they already exist. The code, the ID strings, the NPC dialogue are all there. Unless you're going to say that the entire game is continuously operating at a loss to the point that creating and reissuing event items is what's keeping them in the black?

Not likely or we would have seen a massive merging of servers as i can assure you those are costing the developers far more money than a broomstick mount.

I also know this because had you paid attention to the post in full you would realize that the practice of reissuing event items is one they used to do, interestingly enough it's also a practice almost every single subscription based MMO on the market continues to do.

So unless SE is doing something massively wrong... then no. It costs them nothing to re-issue annual event items.

[Talraen]

If a company goes "This is our service and this is what is included in our service charge" and then starts taking items out of that package for no reason than to charge separately for them you can be sure there will be consumer blowback.

Can you show me where Square Enix ever said that? They used to give people a second chance at seasonal items, now they don't. There was no formal policy in place for the former, nor the latter. What basis do you have for assuming they would remain free forever?

In fact its the exact reason that when cable, internet, and phone providers update their packages for new subscribers they dont go back and ninja the customers on existing plans, they keep them as they were for previous subscribers, because thats what they signed up for (also contracts but y'know).

Contracts are kind of important in this case, since they are literally the reason this happens at all.

So can they decide to charge for it? Sure, they can.

Most companies however deem the practice unethical (lol they don't want to deal with the blowback) so they don't do it and consumers have the right to voice an opinion if they disagree with the service.

No company considers charging for something unethical. Because if they did, they would go out of business pretty quickly. Companies split off products that were previously included in a package, or stop giving things away for free, all the time.

Allowing players to re-obtain seasonal event items in-game was something this game allowed before the Mogstation, it was a feature of the game one could count under what their subscription covered. Then when the next year came around suddenly the vendors no longer provided those items and you could "look forward" to them being charged for an additional fee on the Mogstation.

If you counted on that to be part of your subscription, that's on you. That was never promised. And they gave subscribers a chance to get every item from 1.0 before they started charging for anything.

The argument is "Why am I suddenly paying an additional fee for something I didn't have to before?"

That's not an argument, that's misunderstanding how business works. And besides, you're not paying an additional fee, since you indicated you don't buy the cash shop items. What they have done is stop offering something they used to offer for free. Much like they stopped offering the original version of Diadem, or the entirety of 1.0 (which free for some time before they started charging for it, I might add). It's their game, they can do that, and every user should expect it. One day they'll shut down the servers and everything you ever earned or even paid for will be gone.

[Ryel]

Can you show me where Square Enix ever said that? They used to give people a second chance at seasonal items, now they don't. There was no formal policy in place for the former, nor the latter. What basis do you have for assuming they would remain free forever?

If you counted on that to be part of your subscription, that's on you. That was never promised. And they gave subscribers a chance to get every item from 1.0 before they started charging for anything

If you're asking for a clause in the ToS or the EULA then no you won't find one.

But generally the practice you're asking about falls under consumer-business goodwill. That the expectation, quality, and cost of services rendered wont suddenly change.

It's the same reason players don't expect them to suddenly start charging for any other number of game interactions that we currently have access to even though they technically could, according to the ToS and EULA nothing really stops them, they have the option should they wish. However we dont expect them to start charging for raids resets (some free to play games actually do charge for this) or various other game features, because we pay a recurring subscription. It's one of the draws of the game itself.

Its part of the subscription based MMO model.

No company considers charging for something unethical. Because if they did, they would go out of business pretty quickly. Companies split off products that were previously included in a package, or stop giving things away for free, all the time.

And it doesn't always work, you know why?

Because people speak up about it or take their business elsewhere.

If everyone just shrugged their shoulders anytime it happened it would be far more commonplace. Its why we give feedback, surely such a concept isn't that foreign is it?

That's not an argument, that's misunderstanding how business works. And besides, you're not paying an additional fee, since you indicated you don't buy the cash shop items. What they have done is stop offering something they used to offer for free. Much like they stopped offering the original version of Diadem, or the entirety of 1.0 (which free for some time before they started charging for it, I might add). It's their game, they can do that, and every user should expect it. One day they'll shut down the servers and everything you ever earned or even paid for will be gone.

In all honesty it doesn't affect me, I have the items, I was there for the events.

But judging by the thread it effects other people, and as a consumer I can speak up for and agree with them as well.

When I used the quote for the statement of the argument I don't mean myself personally, but it is an illustration of what the situation actually is. And it's not about whether or not you take something with you when the servers shut down or what content is no longer in the game but the user experience and consumer/business interaction.

SE as a company wont know what is and isn't okay if people don't give feedback on the matter, which is... exactly what I'm doing. I'm not sure how you haven't picked up this point across 3 posts, it hasn't exactly been subtle.

But if you wish to sit there and say "Well it's fine the way it is!" then by all means continue to do so, that's your right as a consumer, just as it's mine to disagree with the practice.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

SE as a company wont know what is and isn't okay if people don't give feedback on the matter, which is... exactly what I'm doing. I'm not sure how you haven't picked up this point across 3 posts, it hasn't exactly been subtle.

But if you wish to sit there and say "Well it's fine the way it is!" then by all means continue to do so, that's your right as a consumer, just as it's mine to disagree with the practice.

Exactly. You all might be okay with getting less than before for your subscription, but don't expect everyone to share that sentiment.

[Talraen]

(a bunch of good stuff)

I'm not going to comb through the EULA, but I think we've both made our points here. I do want to clarify that I have no issue with people complaining about the cash shop, or being unhappy with it. It just bothers me that people try to make it into an ethical argument. All that does is escalate things and divide people. I think we'd all be better off if we were just honest about what we want, particularly with ourselves.

[Nora_of_Mira]

I'm not going to comb through the EULA, but I think we've both made our points here. I do want to clarify that I have no issue with people complaining about the cash shop, or being unhappy with it. It just bothers me that people try to make it into an ethical argument. All that does is escalate things and divide people. I think we'd all be better off if we were just honest about what we want, particularly with ourselves.

I want to look cute and dope AF, and I am willing to pay for it.

[loreleidiangelo]

I want to look cute and dope AF, and I am willing to pay for it.

My sentiments too, pretty much. Nothing except the Far Eastern Matriarch gear has appealed to me on Mog store yet, so that's all I own. I think the WoW mounts are kinda underwhelming, so never bought those either. I don't get what's so hard about realizing that if you don't like stuff, don't buy it, and if the Mog store pisses you off on principle then you should either mass appeal to all the players in-game to boycott it in the hopes that these items will be added to in-game methods in the future, or just unsub and find a game that doesn't have microtransactions (GOOD LUCK, lel).

Way back when the store was introduced I even recall making a post saying, "this is your only chance to make sure this thing doesn't stick around, vote with your wallet and don't buy Odin even if you REALLY want it" then I logged in and saw like 50 people in Mor Dhona with it and realized idgaf, it works for f2p p2w crapfest games and it works here. People LOVE the opportunity to throw money at the screen to feel exclusive from others, whether it's cosmetics or Sword of Noob-beating+40. And given the prices on these items, it takes like half of them to pay what you're paying now, so of course the company is gonna follow where the money comes from.