Adventure In Need (Tanks/Healers who are we kidding) - Reward Ideas

[Kaethra]

If they made the roulette bonus +5 levels. It wouldn't fix the issue. First you have to identify what the issue actually is. And I don't believe that has been done. Only the symptoms.

1. DPS have longer queue times

That's the 'issue' everyone brings up. What's the cause?

DPS is generally more fun? Maybe, some might not like the flavor of tanking.
Tanking requires a leadership role? Nope, that's a myth (friend of mine and I came back after a break since 2.4, they tank primarily, they've not taken a leadership role in any dungeon we haven't done before).
Healing is boring. Maybe, but there's no healer shortage (I'll wager healers are in a perfect spot right now).

What's the issue?

We need tanks in the leveling and PUG queues. But don't need them in endgame content. They're also pretty bad in solo content. This is the issue that plagues EVERY MMORPG with a random dungeon queue.

What happens is people don't level up tanks because you're not needed once you're max level and geared. Try it. Get into a static as a fresh new tank. Nope.. they've already got their tanks. They need DPS. But when leveling and gearing a DPS, you don't have tanks because no one needs tanks except those classes that are needed.

As you can see, its a Charlie Foxtrot of a Circle: The purpose of leveling tanks is to level needed roles. Who wants to volunteer to be eventually be obsolete? No one? That's what I figured.

So what's the fix? What's the solution?

1. You can require there to be more tanks in endgame. Make sure there are mechanics that require One Tank for every One Healer and Two DPS. Matching the leveling setup. Raids require HALF the tanks needed in non-raids. That's a problem.

or.

2. Flex size the groups. When DF is being used to form random groups. If the DPS queue exceeds 5 minutes. Allow the party finder to match parties of more than four players. Let it go to 5 (Tank, Healer, 3 DPS), or 6 (Tank, Healer, 4 DPS), or 7, or 8 (if its really really long). NPC/Boss health is increased by the percentage of players (double hp for 8 players), plus maybe 5-10%. This way the dungeons stay challenging and aren't simply steamrolled. Mechanics stay the same. This doesn't apply to premade parties, you can only go in as four and you don't get extras when you do (except if you queue as 2 or 3 people).

I prefer the second solution. Its more comprehensive. Its only con is it doesn't deal with a healer shortage, but I don't see that being an issue. it also sort of makes the dungeons easier. But since PUGs can complete all 4 man dungeons already with an above 90% success rate (if you see less than that.. sorry but it might be you). This is a non-issue anyway.

Rewarding double the bonus, triple. Maybe even 10x.. hell make it 100x. Or go stupid and give them 10 levels. All will not work. Congrats.. you're allowing someone to level a possibly obsolete role faster. That's not an incentive. It also does nothing for those who simply don't want to. One of my solutions does however. Why incentivize a role someone doesn't want to play if part of the problem, is possibly they just don't want to tank? Flexing the queues allows them to play the class they want to play. There's no good reason why a person who wants to play a Red Mage or Samurai ought not be able to play what they want.

In contrast, you could make a reward system work. Allow 'Adventurer in Need' to award all exp earned on the needed role to ALSO be applied to another Class/Job. So lets say I'm playing a Dark Knight and earn 400,000 exp total from a dungeon from all kills, bonuses, and end rewards. If the needed role was tank I earn 400,000 on the DRK as well as another job or class of my choosing. That's an incentive. The idea is to make the incentive juicy enough that everyone wants it. Everyone switches and DPS Shortage happens, so everyone goes back. Eventually the pools even out until no bonus is needed.

I still prefer the flex queue however. You still get players playing what they want to play in the end. Its a game, not employment.

[Ririta]

I still prefer the flex queue however. You still get players playing what they want to play in the end. Its a game, not employment.

If you've ever played WoW you'd know what an awful idea this is. Just to give you an idea, queues for LFR often went for hours - when it was only 2 tanks on a raid for 25 players.

Removing even more incentive from tanking will never be a solution.

[Kaethra]

If you've ever played WoW you'd know what an awful idea this is. Just to give you an idea, queues for LFR often went for hours - when it was only 2 tanks on a raid for 25 players.

Removing even more incentive from tanking will never be a solution.

I did play WOW. Very recently in fact.

When I ran LFR as DPS on my warlock, the queue was near instant. Go login there now. Watch the classes in need by any guild doing Normal, Heroic, or Mythical raids, they all need DPS. Sometimes healers. They already have their tanks. Just like statics here in FFXIV.

The normal dungeon queues lack tanks. But like I said, its because they aren't needed after you're done doing PUG content.

[Driavna]

The normal dungeon queues lack tanks. But like I said, its because they aren't needed after you're done doing PUG content.

So true, people always overlook it. Anyway, this problem has no real solution because if the bonus are that good people will complain instead of tanking.

[Kaethra]

So true, people always overlook it. Anyway, this problem has no real solution because if the bonus are that good people will complain instead of tanking.

I gave a solution earlier. Flex the dungeon queues. Allow more DPS into the group and adjust mob difficulty. Do it dynamically based on ratio of DPS to other roles. If there's 3 DPS in the queue for each healer and tank, then increasing the group size to 5 (1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps) would give DPS near instant queues.

This is literally a win win solution as it will allow people to play the role and job they wish to play and stick to it.

Players who like tanking will play tanks. People who like healing play healers. People who like damage will play dps.

The side effect that people fear is the reverence given to tanks and healers could be lost. But sorry to say (and this is coming from a healer) that reverence needs to go. DPS are just as important if not more so since we need minimum of two. And they deal with the extra mechanics tanks and healers largely ignore. The reverence is only there because the majority play DPS (due to the reasons I gave before), and are somewhat expendable due to the queues.

This change makes tanks and healers expendable. Some don't like that idea. But in my experience and opinion, tanks and healers have been just as expendable. The principles and feelings of those in their ivory tower do not exceed the needs of the many in this case. I'm sure many will agree.

[Ririta]

I did play WOW. Very recently in fact.

When I ran LFR as DPS on my warlock, the queue was near instant. Go login there now. Watch the classes in need by any guild doing Normal, Heroic, or Mythical raids, they all need DPS. Sometimes healers. They already have their tanks. Just like statics here in FFXIV.

The normal dungeon queues lack tanks. But like I said, its because they aren't needed after you're done doing PUG content.

I've only played between Cata and WoD, no Legion yet. Are DPS queues that fast now? Was it the demon hunters?

[Vaer]

I think they're probably just gonna up the gil reward, in addition to whatever they do for the new tank mounts.

I've only played between Cata and WoD, no Legion yet. Are DPS queues that fast now? Was it the demon hunters?

Not really, they are about 10min on the weekend. I checked earlier and on (US) most of the call to arms were tank and a couple healer. They are faster than before but that is somewhat because raiders are in the queue getting legendary bad luck protection, trying to get titanforge procs than can rng proc all the way up to mythic gear levels, set pieces are back in there after being removed in WoD, and the stat consumables. Call to Arms DPS happens sometimes (I've seen a couple on the raid end bosses for lfr) but the past week as far as I've seen they are mostly healer/tank still.

Right now, there are 6 tank, and 2 healer ones.

[Kaethra]

Nah, thats don't work for real mechanics, one of the problem Blizzard had with their normal/heroic modes are how easy/hard are certain bosses based on the number of players. Real tuining require to know the number of player and what roles are present if not is a mess.

You're speaking of raids. I'm talking about group dungeons. What I'm suggesting would not even make the dungeons easier than PotD which gives similar and better rewards in some cases (outside the roulette). I'm talking about making 4 man content in the roulette do this. Not Trials. Not Raids.

I've only played between Cata and WoD, no Legion yet. Are DPS queues that fast now? Was it the demon hunters?

LFR was. Which was what I was referring to. But in LFR you need a ton of DPS compared to healers and tanks.

[Jim_Berry]

As a player, I spam content, especially the roulettes, even after I did the dailies.

As a tank main, it's gets a little stale after a while; I'm pulling the same groups and performing the same actions.
As a DPS, the same dungeon almost always seem different, since I'm not always attacking mobs in a set order each time.

Since I'm Lore farming in Gubal Hard, doing Savage, farming Primals, all as a tank, I need my feels as a DPS in dungeons sometimes. At that point, I'm contributing to the long queue times since I'm one more tank that isn't tanking.

[BokoToloko]

More (relevant) tomes with Adventurer In Need, faster progression for more in-demand roles (tank and healer), more tanks and healers in high endgame (or, at least, the roulettes).