Why are summoners so neglected?

[Duelle]

Ideas are fine and all, but balance is a thing.

Balance is mostly a numbers game. The rest goes with ensuring the ideas match the numbers generated by the other classes, or that the tradeoffs are worthwhile for whatever advantage/utility those provide.

If you look at 2.x, by the end of that patch cycle summoners were the weakest class bar none. They complained a lot then, and back then they actually had a good reason to, as well. It got fixed in 3.0- sure, they gravitated away from a conventional "pet class" some, but mechanically, they became much more stable, to the point that at 3.5 they are the most played class in the game according to the census. While mechanically, they feel less like the idealized version of a summoner some people want, the class is now arguably the most mechanically stable while still fitting into the lore reliably. If you want to change that, you should bring more to the table than "It's not what I want" and "I want more".

Except that when you have to turn a pet class into a non-pet class to make it "stable", that underlines severe issues with the design of the battle system. And that's not a good thing.

Just because something looks good in the damage meters does not mean it is soundly designed.

Your ideas(And thank you for bringing some to the table!) are nice, but can make the class a little too bloaty. You can't have one class do everything- which is why there's no healer egi, and only three egis. You put more in, each role becomes more niche, and balance becomes more and more of an issue.

Again, balance is a numbers game. Concepts are simply to put together; the tricky part is making sure the numbers come out comparable to other classes.

If we made Shiva-egi a primarily crowd control egi (channeled CC to mirror the WoW warlock's Succubus), that egi is not going to be hitting hard compared to Ifrit when it comes to melee. It's edge would be the ability to crowd control, which could prove useful both in PvP and PvE encounters that make it grant your raid an advantage (also, instead of putting in a million memory games in raid fights, they should start adding adds that need to be CC'd or kited; not only would this give Shiva-egi a purpose, but it would also make Sleep and Repose no longer be wastes of space).

Leviathan-egi would also be an excellent candidate to mimic the Felhunter as an anti-caster pet. This means it'd be the only pet with the ability to reliably interrupt spell casts and weaken casters in general. We already have a template with what Levi does during the fight, with stuff like Gyre Spume being a debuff you apply on enemy casters to drain their MP/weaken their Magic Attack. Spinning Dive would be your interrupt on a 30s cooldown. Its overall DPS would be decent, but still behind Ifrit because of the ability to debuff casters. Much like Shiva-egi, Levi would be pretty useful in both PvP and PvE since you could make SMN part of an interrupt rotation if you decided to bring a DRK and WAR to tank a raid and only had 1 BRD, but needed a second person to help interrupt enemy spell casts (by the way, the devs should also add spells that need to be interrupted for raid fights).

If you have all your bases covered, Ifrit would still be the go-to DPS pet, but there's something to be said for having some flexibility in giving your group options for a comp. it wouldn't be a new idea either, since Warlocks used to have a buff called Demonic Pact that increased the HP of the raid when they had their imp summoned. The amount was comparable to the priest's Power Word: Fortitude, and was there as a back up in case you didn't have priests in your raid.

Really, to make them more prominent at all they'd need a complete overhaul and the class would need rebalancing to not be nearly as strong on it's own. It's also bound to Scholar due to the dual nature of the Arcanist class, and that can't really be stopped.

By that point, isn't it easier to just start from square one, and request something like an "evoker" class?

Having two classes that are conceptually the same thing is a true waste of resources.

While I understand developers don't like rebuilding something from scratch, sometimes it's the only way to get a cohesive design and at least show a clear direction for the system in question. If SMN/ACN/SCH wasn't such a mess, sure I could say "leave it alone", but between the lacking implementation of the job crystals (because either the SMN crystal or the SCH crystal should be notably changing ACN baseline abilities to meet each job's needs) and the schizophrenic design behind SMN, I just point at the drawing board and say "redesign".

[Atlaworks]

Words

Let me repeat myself: It's pretty easy to say "they can make it work" when you yourself can't make it work. Especially when what exists already works.

You can't just say "SMN only looks good on damage meters, that's why everyone plays it!", because if it was only good at damage and nothing else, it wouldn't attract people as it does. Other classes can output higher sustained damage than it, and I'd say it's far more soundly designed than it was in 2.5 by a long shot- by the addition of further damage abilities not tied to pets. You can say it's not what you want, and that it's not a reskinned WoWlock, but saying it's not soundly designed seems pretty far off base to me.

A great deal of your argument as well is "balance is only numbers, concepts are simple to put together it's just the numbers that make it seem tough". Well, let me let you in on a secret: Everyone is an "ideas guy". Everyone has some idea on how to fix the class to their own specifications, and how to "fix" the class with the highest playerbase in the game. No one has solid mechanics on how to do so, and why it's broken in the first place other than "It's not what I personally want". Anything they request is, at best, a request to fully dismantle a class that is not only functioning perfectly well, but to an extent that the changes you vilify made it go from the single least played class in the game to the single most played, and replace it with mechanics akin to what made it so underplayed to begin with. Now, I don't mind you requesting what you want personally, everyone is entitled to that, but there's no reason to get rid of what exists when it functions exceedingly well in reality. If it is not broken, it does not need to be fixed.

In line with your thoughts on balance and ways to implement new egis, the thing I notice most is that you and most other folks who want a radical redesign of the class just want more stuff. There's very little "Change" and a great deal of "add" to requests, and having 5-6 egis all with some special niche means that you have a class that either is overspecialized into using just one of the egis commonly, or has too wide an array of skills to justify doing the damage they do, and would have to lose something to compensate. Every class has a niche, and some ways to support- giving a single class all the options and unparalleled flexibility on top of the high burst potential summoners already have would be an absolute disaster for balance as a whole, and would have precious little to do with numbers.

[Shougun]

In line with your thoughts on balance and ways to implement new egis, the thing I notice most is that you and most other folks who want a radical redesign of the class just want more stuff. There's very little "Change" and a great deal of "add" to requests, and having 5-6 egis all with some special niche means that you have a class that either is overspecialized into using just one of the egis commonly, or has too wide an array of skills to justify doing the damage they do, and would have to lose something to compensate. Every class has a niche, and some ways to support- giving a single class all the options and unparalleled flexibility on top of the high burst potential summoners already have would be an absolute disaster for balance as a whole, and would have precious little to do with numbers.

Adding more Egis doesn't require a radical redesign (unless you're suggesting any change is radical). Besides adjusting for the situation with your Egi the rotation would be pretty much the same (excluding any other suggestion, like the ones made to the trance system). I thought the more stuff thing was pretty apparent lol, besides its been shown to work before so its not like people are asking things that /can't/ work.

The idea of being able to rotate egis out easily would allow, good players, to summon to the tune of the fight - of course bad players will stick with one but I don't know what to say about that besides.. so? Boss summons adds that need to be taken out, obviously your crap single target damage egi won't do, tank biffed it - must help, tank buster coming whip a buff up, there are a lot of opportunities where you could slide your egi around, if the potential to quickly cycle them existed. The smallest change that was just suggested was that fast cast has less cooldown when used to summon and returns a portion of the mp cost - could make new mechanics sure, but it isn't required. A type of aetherflow fast cast might allow a finer-tuned brush on balance control though.

Just to add Summoner already has near unparalleled flexibility and it isn't that weird, since similarly Warlock was that way too. (Hunter to an extent, but didn't have all the tools like Warlock). Pet and transforming classes usually have ridiculous flexibility, and people live with it just fine (although usually switching gears requires a wrench in your rotation, it's true you at least had the option to wrench your gears and switch tracks - but again this isn't some weird thing that has never been proven to work before).

[Silverquick]

Adding more Egis doesn't require a radical redesign (unless you're suggesting any change is radical). Besides adjusting for the situation with your Egi the rotation would be pretty much the same (excluding any other suggestion, like the ones made to the trance system). I thought the more stuff thing was pretty apparent lol, besides its been shown to work before so its not like people are asking things that /can't/ work.

The idea of being able to rotate egis out easily would allow, good players, to summon to the tune of the fight - of course bad players will stick with one but I don't know what to say about that besides.. so?.

Once again...

I'm already running a rotation that looks like this...

Single Target:
Quick Cast + Shadowflare>Bio 2>Miasma>Bio>(Garuda) Contagion>Fester>Ruin 3>Ruin 3>Fester>Rouse + Spur + Enkindle (Aerial Blast)>Ruin 3>Fester>Dreadwyrm Trance>Ruin 3 (x4)>Tri-Disaster>Deathflare (aka TeraFlare).

Thats not even including Raise during Raids, or Double tapping a Ruin 3 + Ruin 2 for a Dual cast quick 280 potency Burst.

Or on Multiple Targets.
Quick Cast + Shadowflare>Tri-Disaster>Garuda (Contagion)>Painflare>Bane>Rouse + Spur + Enkindle (Aerial Blast)>Painflare>Dreadwyrm Trance>Bliz 2 (x3)>Deathflare (aka TeraFlare).

I don't NEED another pet... I've already got a ton of abilities... and ALL of them get used. Well Admittedly I don't get much use out of Ifrit these days... only Titan and Garuda.

What exactly did you want to "ADD" again to my already full Rotation?

[Shougun]

You are also asking for a "Add" rather than "Change". Can't have your cake and eat it too. You only get so many abilities.

I get as many as I can beg SE to add lol. Although I'm concerned about the controller, but if they can get it to work with the controller then ability difference is rather irrelevant to me (anyone with experience with MMOs should be used to certain jobs having more buttons than others, especially the older ones like FFXI or WoW).

Once again...

I'm already running a rotation that looks like this...

Well your summons are not part of your rotation, it would only be adjusted when the situation dictates. Say you have your single target egi out and you're doing your single target rotation, no change to your rotation, boss disappears and 40 adds appear - you change to your aoe pet (with an improved fast cast so that you're less punished and on less downtime) and you continue your aoe rotation exactly as you had before.

Of course there are new scenarios to think about but the rotation wouldn't change really, and a better separation of the egi - as you said you neglect Ifrit my suggestion was to make sure every Egi has a clearly superior situation (and thus inferior); which would encourage change.

When the big party buster comes you might have the opportunity to help yourself survive with a utility buff, but again your general rotations are not changed - just that you're more mindful of what Egi you have out for what and their existence is more clear. You still might not use certain Egi, like if you never do solo content and always have a tank then Titan Egi probably collects dust but whatever it's still in your toolkit (same thing happens with Warlock, but then all a sudden they have the opportunity to rise to the occasion and flash their impressive breadth).

So I think you're adding to the suggestion something I'm not suggesting.

[Silverquick]

I get as many as I can beg SE to add lol. Although I'm concerned about the controller, but if they can get it to work with the controller then ability difference is rather irrelevant to me (anyone with experience with MMOs should be used to certain jobs having more buttons than others, especially the older ones like FFXI or WoW).

Well your summons are not part of your rotation,.

Dude I highly doubt you can even run the rotation I'm running currently... yet here you are... wanting to completely remodel the class into something overly complicated and likely will be useless in the grand scheme of the thing with rarely used abilities that won't likely contribute much or are going to be too time consuming to work properly...

Ie... the failure of the FFXI Summoner and why it was so useless.

No I don't want your version of the Summoner... if I have to choose between the two I'll take what I'm playing right now... its a hell of a lot more effective.

[Shougun]

Dude I highly doubt you can even run the rotation I'm running currently... yet here you are... wanting to completely remodel the class into something overly complicated and likely will be useless in the grand scheme of the thing with rarely used abilities that won't likely contribute much or are going to be too time consuming to work properly...

Ie... the failure of the FFXI Summoner and why it was so useless.

No I don't want your version of the Summoner... if I have to choose between the two I'll take what I'm playing right now... its a hell of a lot more effective.

The suggestions I've made were not based on nor would make it like FFXI's, they're also not a complete remodel and they're not "pet only damage". I'm concerned you might be assuming far more than I've intended or suggested in the desire to prevent any change on the class you enjoy. You also do not need to go into character attacks (skill) simply because you disagree, its unnecessary and in bad form.

Effectiveness would be incorrect if what I suggested existed, since a good summoner would be hitting the niche more often with relative minimal change in setup/rotation (pick the right Egi and continue on as normal) - Atlaworks is correct in asserting it is simply more toys and an an unrivaled amount of flexibility. But.. you can like the current version all you want that's fine, I'm not even trying to destroy it (if anything people should be worried that I'm making it good at way too many things, like Atlas lol)*.

Anyway I only have a few principle dislikes of summoner, one of which is that I think the Egi look awful even in comparison to WoW Warlock which has worse graphics as a whole (imo), the next is I'd love to see the general abilities themed after primals (bio/ruin/bane/fester) even if it's only visual (I mostly have visual issues with summoner, I think it isn't impressive until the later spells), and finally I find the half an elemental wheel obscure and again because of WoW see it as unnecessary (because it has shown that you can have more than 3 pets and be fine, even if you rely on one or two most often - certain patches having their own issues of course). I am concerned about the restrictive nature of the trance and that it is only dragon (so far), but I am not set that it must be destroyed in fact I think it probably only needs a simple tweak and for that I'm not even sure it has to be.. just a lurking fear. Although on visuals I do like the Enkindle/Ahk Morn visuals, they're fun.

Edit: *Although to add onto that last part its just important that you have the wrench as part of the transition (fast cast/aetherflow/w.e) in the flexibility (both Druid and Warlock have these wrenches) even though their total flexibility is insane (Duelle mentions it as well that it's not all at once active flexibility, but total possible flexibility). Some may be uncomfortable with that sheer total amount, but I just suggest that it has worked before (doesn't mean it has to be done again, of course but it does show that jobs that have this trait are not inherently the "only" pick).

[Mhaeric]

Single Target:
Quick Cast + Shadowflare>Bio 2>Miasma>Bio>(Garuda) Contagion>Fester>Ruin 3>Ruin 3>Fester>Rouse + Spur + Enkindle (Aerial Blast)>Ruin 3>Fester>Dreadwyrm Trance>Ruin 3 (x4)>Tri-Disaster>Deathflare (aka TeraFlare).

Is it not better to save your contagion until after the Dreadwyrm trance and use tri-disaster closer to the start of your trance in order to get the longest duration on the higher damage dots?

[Silverquick]

Is it not better to save your contagion until after the Dreadwyrm trance and use tri-disaster closer to the start of your trance in order to get the longest duration on the higher damage dots?

Depends on the situation and how much movement will be required at any given Boss Mob...

If its a lot of movement mechanics later in the fight you'll want to save your Tri-Disaster to refresh your DoTs later while you're moving... because you won't be able to stand and cast Bio, Bio 2, and Miasma, and they'll fall off.

10% more damage from a trance is useless if you can't keep your DoTs on target continuously anyway. I manually cast them normally if I have a space to actually not move... and use the Tri Disaster later in the fight while I'm having to juggle other things. Its one of those ideas where in a perfect world yeah you can... but in any given combat, wishful thinking can meet reality and tear it all down.

To stablize my opener, I use Contagion right away and begin moving into the Fester, Ruin 3, Ruin 3, Fester rotation, until we hit the magical number for DWT. That's generally right when the Fight Mechanics start kicking in and you have to start thinking on your feet.

That's the reason I use Tri-Disaster later in a fight

Unless we're talking about AoEing down Trash packs, where you WANT to get your DoTs on target as fast as possible, so you can Hit Contagion, then while you wait for that, you can hit Painflare, and by that time Garuda will FINALLY get around to casting it, and you can hit Bane... then another Painflare, and then go into DWT and get ready for the Big TeraFlare/Deathflare.

[Mhaeric]

That's the reason I use Tri-Disaster later in a fight
.

But using tri-disaster earlier makes it available again sooner, and in an opener the overall duration of dots applied is the same just with more time spent with higher potency dots. Im not getting this logic of saving tridisaster until the end of the opener since the opener takes the same time to execute, ends up outputting less dps, and tridisaster ends up on cooldown for longer. The only thing being delayed is contagion, and that's best used when you're getting a 30% boost (you left out raging strikes) to your dots so it's not a loss.

Just talking about single target fights. AoE trash I usually just open with tridisaster since, unless the other dps is low output, everything is dead before needing to refresh dots anyway and that let's me get to the burst faster.