Why are summoners so neglected?

[Silverquick]

I don't get where half of you are coming from...

This is largely one of the most powerful and popular Jobs in the game... and here you are complaining? And a very fun job to play on top of that.

Summoner is JUST fine as is... mechanically it is one of the most powerful AoE DPS classes in the game. And I can point you to FFLogs to show any given time how much they are ruling the field in many areas.

The only thing you guys seem to have a problem with is visuals... and that's pretty superficial. I get that you want something cooler looking... but at least specify that.

Because the reality is... the Summoner is already good. In fact its top of the line. The way they designed it especially after Heavensward, made it a powerful and viable class, that is quite literally the best at what it does in terms of AoE damage.

So reworking the base mechanics of it are more likely to cheese off the Summoner crew as a whole... and potentially break it... when it was working just fine prior.

And... more importantly. How many of you here actually played this thing to the uppermost levels?

I know that at around level 50 it was a little weaker. But by level 60 its ruling the field.

[azura84]

I don't get where half of you are coming from...

The issue is that this game has become all about balance, and the point we're making about it being just new animations/egi's is that, similarly to any other dps job, you have little difference between each of their max dps so if everyone is doing 50 50 50 50 50, then what's the difference in just feeding the beast (smn playerbase) some more egi's and animations that do the same thing. I know this isn't exactly true, many jobs have alternate uses and circumstances best used for but mostly the game is extremely balanced and the point is if they make everyone the same strength what's the big problem with making more egi's similarly.

I would be happy sacrificing new gear for SMN if they gave us more summons.

[Silverquick]

The issue is that this game has become all about balance, and the point we're making about it being just new animations/egi's is that, similarly to any other dps job, you have little difference between each of their max dps so if everyone is doing 50 50 50 50 50, then what's the difference in just feeding the beast (smn playerbase

I would be happy sacrificing new gear for SMN if they gave us more summons.

I wouldn't... I only make use of Titan and Garuda at this point anyway.

I'm already running a rotation that looks like this...

Single Target:
Quick Cast + Shadowflare>Bio 2>Miasma>Bio>(Garuda) Contagion>Fester>Ruin 3>Ruin 3>Fester>Rouse + Spur + Enkindle (Aerial Blast)>Ruin 3>Fester>Dreadwyrm Trance>Ruin 3 (x4)>Tri-Disaster>Deathflare (aka TeraFlare).

Thats not even including Raise during Raids, or Double tapping a Ruin 3 + Ruin 2 for a Dual cast quick 280 potency Burst.

Or on Multiple Targets.
Quick Cast + Shadowflare>Tri-Disaster>Garuda (Contagion)>Painflare>Bane>Rouse + Spur + Enkindle (Aerial Blast)>Painflare>Dreadwyrm Trance>Bliz 2 (x3)>Deathflare (aka TeraFlare).

I don't NEED another pet... I've already got a ton of abilities... and ALL of them get used. Well Admittedly I don't get much use out of Ifrit these days... only Titan and Garuda.

Its why I keep wondering if you guys have played this class or not to any respectable level.

Do you have any idea how many abilities this job ALREADY has? I already run 3 Bars worth of abilities on any given dungeon or raid... and I use ALL of them... NONE of my powers or abilities as a Summoner are not used with the exception of Tri-Bind and Virus... and Virus is actually useful... its just irrelevent at my level... (and so is Physic because is too low powered)

[azura84]

snip..

First of all, I can respect a good rotation and player taking the time to delve into the details, you're not alone in this. What "I" am proposing is simply giving us more summons and then grouping their 5 main abilities under a single action button, like have all the summons 1st abilities (Wind Blade, Rock Blaster, Crimson Cyclone) fit under a single action button since you can only have 1 out at a time, each of those buttons having the list of actions they perform in their description, thus reducing the number of hotbars required (except if you like having a CD list on your screen) and also giving us more summons. You're looking at this from a statistical perspective and we're looking at this from a more lore based perspective, since traditionally more and more summons are made as you progress with summoners in final fantasy games (all of them). We have just 3 and all are little unintimidating baby egi's, it's just kinda like a fart in the wind compared to what summons have always been, big and imposing.

[Silverquick]

First of all, I can respect a good rotation and player taking the time to delve into the details, you're not alone in this. What "I" am proposing is simply giving us more summons and then grouping their 5 main abilities under a single action button. You're looking at this from a statistical perspective and we're looking at this from a more lore based perspective, since traditionally more and more summons are made as you progress with summoners in final fantasy games (all of them). We have just 3 and all are little unintimidating baby egi's, it's just kinda like a fart in the wind compared to what summons have always been, big and imposing.

BUT... do they get used.... or are they just for coolness purposes...

Grouping the abilities is cool and all but its not going to change anything in the end.

The reason Ifrit doesn't get used anymore has nothing to do with how good he actually is. His Inferno attack is actually slightly better than Garuda's Aerial Blast when you use Enkindle... and its got a DoT tacked on... but Garuda has Contagion too, which is critical to extending your DoTs, and its more valuable in the end than either Ifrits Fireshield or his Inferno.

So... Garuda is the one that gets used, plus its a distance attacker that you can shift targets to instantly rather than Ifrit having to move all the way over to attack something.

How exactly is this going to change if you add another Summon? Even if you did group the abilities like you are talking about... it doesn't change the base reality that only one of them gets used anyway.

[Kazrah]

First of all, I can respect a good rotation and player taking the time to delve into the details, you're not alone in this. What "I" am proposing is simply giving us more summons and then grouping their 5 main abilities under a single action button, like have all the summons 1st abilities (Wind Blade, Rock Blaster, Crimson Cyclone) fit under a single action button since you can only have 1 out at a time, each of those buttons having the list of actions they perform in their description, thus reducing the number of hotbars required (except if you like having a CD list on your screen) and also giving us more summons. You're looking at this from a statistical perspective and we're looking at this from a more lore based perspective, since traditionally more and more summons are made as you progress with summoners in final fantasy games (all of them).

I'm still not seeing how this is a separate solution from just sticking with egi glamours, because by giving egi glamours, not only would it provide the sense of having those extra summons, but also skip over the petty disputes of what role each one of them would be. Ah yes, pet role, the major reason why there's no need to have more egis.

"How about an AoE-focused egi?": Not only would this be too situational, but if SMN was really that desperate for more AoE damage (like it's actually needed), it'd be easier just to buff the AoE skills of the current egis.
"Why not a CC egi?": Quick, when was the last time you used a CC skill outside of a quest? You're right, never, and that's about how often such an egi would be used.
"What about a debuffing egi?": So debuffs that either wouldn't work on major fights and/or debuffs that other jobs provide? Sure person without friends that could provide them, although balancing it would mean its damage would be worse compared to other egis.
"I want a support egi!": If you want a support pet, stick to SCH. Otherwise, you'd end up with the loser who wants a debuffing egi.
"I'd like an egi with X ability.": If it's off a primal, then that primal could wind up as a glamour and might hopefully have an ability like that one.

Sure, egi glamouring isn't a perfect system, but it's a lot better than asking for more egis when the vast majority of SMN players don't even use all of the ones available to them.

[zylo1010]

I miss my FFXI summoner. when i quit FFXI it was one of the jobs i had the most fun on, (i left at 75 cap not 100). I had ton's of summons and with the gear i had it was 0-1 mp a tick to keep them out. I wish FFXIV summoner was closer to FFXI summoner. At it's current state it feels like a black mage with pets.

[Silkerin]

I like how in the live letters instead of questions like: "will the devs be open to sugestions to make smn feel more like a summoner class?", "why shield oath isnt given at lv 30?", "why they insist of not giving any potency to pld's flash?", "wont they give bards their mobility back so players who chose bard on 2.0 can still feel like they are playing the class they chose?"; and other questions like that, we get instead for the live letters questions related to peaches and stuff that was already answered in previous live letters... makes me think they pick the easy and dumb questions from the threads on purpose...

Still, I am all in for Nalien's suggestion, it would help a lot the issue of the "feel" of the smns, hell, if it is a lack of funding the reason, make it a mogstation thing, it will be an annoying yes, but still, it isnt something "necessary" to the class and purely cosmetic. of course i will rather have it be an option in the game from the beginning but hey...

while talking about egis, tbh i would like to have at least 1 more egi, a support one, maybe a moogle king egi, that can give tp and mp like a brd or mch, of course its dps would be lower compared to other egis and slightly lower when it is singing/dancing, but no other kind of buffs to the party, as buffing the party would feel like something a sch fairy should do, and it still would somewhat fill in what a smn could do in previous games, as some summons had a secondary or purely support effect. I say this because of the situation i have in my static, the bard doesnt really want to play bard or mechanist anymore, because as they said, "they chopped off their legs and turned them into a bowmage", but since it is the only 2 classes that can give tp and mp, she is stuck with it, but having that option on smn might allow for her to switch to another class.

Also i still want more skills/spells that interact with the egi :P

[Nalien]

while talking about egis, tbh i would like to have at least 1 more egi

I kinda feel like they could remove Egi as pets completely... Would completely destroy any comparison to XI, just replace the Summon skills with their respective Egi abilities... Rework all the existing skills as I've described, so each one corresponds to a specific Egi, then have Enkindle function like Kassatsu on select abilities... Instead of Summon I, you have Garuda-Egi in the form of Contagion, while Summon III becomes Flaming Crush. An Enkindled Flaming Crush is just straight up Inferno, even opens the door for more Enkindles; Enkindled "Shadow Flare" could be a joke Zantetsuken...

IDK, more work than it's worth IMO, you'd need to completely rebalance the entire Job to make up for the lost pet damage, but at this point the Egi just feel really lackluster and pointless... You have Contagion or soloability which pales in comparison to Warrior or Scholar... If trash packs in dungeons were scaled to die quicker, Ifrit-Egi and Radiant Shield might be more potent than Contagion, but I don't think that's the world we live in, Contagion + Bane > anything else... Rather than a fourth pet, I'd say just rebalance what we currently have... I think Machinist works a lot better as a pet Job currently, both pets have a clearly defined purpose, I'd actually quite like to see them get a Knight type autoturret, which upon Promotion provides damage mitigation, with Hypercharge applying a Drain Samba style effect for a sort of Regen effect... Summoner could work on a similar principle... The main problem is Bane/Contagion... It makes Summon I both the best single target pet and AoE pet... I'd say drop Tri-Bind, make Contagion the Lv40 skill, give Summon I something else and give the current three pets clearly defined roles as single target focused, AoE focused, and support/tank focused. Perhaps have Summon IIs Enkindle be an Asylum style effect, rather than a second Shadow Flare... That's useful for solo and potentially has a small niche in party content... Could change Earthen Ward too, and I guess Landslide? Though the other two skills are pretty much required for him to hold hate solo...

Although... As I said, not fond of cross-class skills for the most part... Summoner having Quelling Strike isn't right IMO... I want the same effect done in a way that is unique to Summoner... Shadewalker (wow, such unique), but limited to my pet, achieves the exact same thing as Quelling Strike, but in a way that fits Summoner, and potentially frees up Summon II to work solo (any of them, really) with less enmity skills... He can still be a tank, but you'd free up some room for more support oriented skills that could benefit people in grouped content. Kinda wish Sustain was just a stance that constantly drained MP to heal/channel your enmity to your pet... That 10s duration is just irritating...

[Silkerin]

I kinda feel like they could remove Egi as pets completely...

to remove egis they would need then to introduce in the same expansion an actual pet job, which, it seems wont ever happen because they are afraid people will be bad with it.

and i doubt they would ever rework a class so much again like they did with warrior