Multiple Job Roles Idea

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Balance = no fun allowed.

Would you prefer being excluded from any difficult content? FFXI suffered notably from certain builds or sub-classes being deemed "trash" and people outright refusing to take them. Balance is what allows players to more freely choose the job they prefer and still complete everything. Yes, the meta comp exists but it's not to the point of exclusion.

[SenorPatty]

SMN job is fine. Its the labeling that I'm not okay with. At cap, the only use SMN have for pet is Garuda's contagion. At best, we're more like...saboteurs or some other debuffing class.


SMN, imo, should've been either one of these 3 things:

-Cast summoning spells, with each spell having an extra effect.

-Every defeated primal nets you a summon, from which you use the pet hotbar is more exclusively.

-"Trancing" or Transforming into the primal of choice, which replaces your regular hotbar with primal skills.

[MistakeNot]

Just floating this idea but I think it would be cool to have multiple roles for the different jobs. Want to be a DPS paladin? Just change to a DPS spec (complete with DPS abilities). Some things wouldn't make sense like a white mage tank but warrior, paladin and dark knight DPS roles would be a cool idea. It would also give the game a little more diversity and a bit more freedom of choice. What does everyone else think?

I generally love hybrid classes, so I like the idea in general.
It would require a major redesign of the whole class/job system (and the whole gear system) though, and the game has so far moved in the opposite direction - away from any hybrid stuff, making each job good at only one thing.
In short - nice idea that will never get implemented.

[loreleidiangelo]

What balance issues? Both works perfectly and are fun to play.

Except for the part where SCH DPS is insanely MP efficient due to their ACN roots, which can't be adjusted without hurting SMN? Were you even around for Final Coil? I was, where being a SMN was a hugely painful crunch of MP issues and lower damage, and the developers told me I'd have to sit that way until the expansion because they couldn't buff me without also buffing their OP golden child, SCH, who was solo healing T13s at the time and wrecking on mass Snowcloak pulls.

The problem comes from SCH DPS. I get that people don't like hearing that, and for once this isn't a criticism of the healer DPS meta, it's a criticism of class design. All of SCH's DoTs are designed around ACN, a DPS class, and later SMN, a DPS job. This means that they're given mana costs proportionate to the idea that they will be seeing 100% uptime on a boss. Those mana costs are IN NO WAY adjusted for SCH, who has a much higher natural MP pool due to piety, gets higher returns on Aetherflow because it's a 20% flat restoration rate, and also gets the advantage of getting piety on gear, which means higher in-combat mana regen. This wouldn't be a problem if their healing kit had inflated MP costs, but they don't - aside from two abilities, mana costs are exactly the same vis-a-vis on my SCH as they are on my WHM (identical gear).

Seriously, my SMN has almost 4k less MP at level 60 than my SCH, but DoT costs are the same. Basic heal costs on my SCH (Physick vs Cure) are the same as a WHM, cleanse costs are the same as a WHM, rez costs are the same as a WHM, Broil vs Stone III MP costs are the same, and SCH's "Regen" is MP-free, and off the GCD in the form of the fairy. Yes, DoTs are lower potency compared to WHM/AST, but the point remains that their mana costs are reflecting an uptime that is just not possible for the other healers to achieve, AND SCHs still have really efficient mana costs on their actual healing kit as well, save Adloquium/Succor which is pretty high I guess to discourage spamming. Pet abilities also cost no mana, which again, is likely a design decision influenced by ACN/SMN rather than SCH itself, and one of the biggest complaints balance connoisseurs have about SCH right now is how brutally effective and efficient the entire fairy kit is (Eos mostly).

As to your other point about SCHs being more "interesting" than spamming "3-4 abilities on WHM"...SCH doesn't really have that many more, tbh. They have 5 DoTs (including Aero cross'd from CNJ) and a filler. WHM has 3 DoTs and a filler, but also Fluid Aura every 15 seconds if they can get in range. SCH only has two more abilties to upkeep, and they're actually easier to manage because they have longer duration. WHM rotation is actually incredibly frustrating because of how short Aero II is and how much I have to pay attention to it. Even then, I can't say I'd care if they still want SCH to have a bunch of DoTs to upkeep to maintain the illusion of complexity... I just don't want those DoTs to be ACN DoTs, I want them to have higher mana costs to reflect SCH's naturally higher piety/MP pool.

[SendohJin]

Books does not fit SCH

Books do not fit Scholars? REALLY? a scholar doesn't read books? REALLY?

a specialist in a particular branch of study, especially the humanities;
a distinguished academic.
a person who is highly educated or has an aptitude for study.

oh man, it's so broken that they have books.

[SendohJin]

SMN job is fine. Its the labeling that I'm not okay with...

-"Trancing" or Transforming into the primal of choice, which replaces your regular hotbar with primal skills.

That's what I always wanted SMN to be but it's never going to happen because they are too far into the design of what we have now. FF SMNs don't have to be pet jobs.

[Driavna]

Just floating this idea but I think it would be cool to have multiple roles for the different jobs. Want to be a DPS paladin? Just change to a DPS spec (complete with DPS abilities). Some things wouldn't make sense like a white mage tank but warrior, paladin and dark knight DPS roles would be a cool idea. It would also give the game a little more diversity and a bit more freedom of choice. What does everyone else think?

Is silly and useless since this game allow you to be multiple classes at the same time.

[Faliandra]

that is why I said allow people to change roles and seek for the updated replacements. I think part of this suggestion comes from wow how you can change mid-way in a dungeon so you are not waiting forever for a healer or tank.



Why does calling out something broken because it is based on 1.0 upset you? it does NOT WORK!!!! in 2.0 because ACN/SMN/SCH was made from 1.0 ideas that was completely thrown out the window in 2.0.

Yes books matter, the true endgame is glam, I think it is lazy as hell we got what we have out of SMN,SCH, ACN. Books does not fit SCH/ SMN roles.

Yoshida cam think one way, I can think another. I find it funny how you are obsessed with saying people want SCH a 3 button healer job ( I do not you are putting words in my mouth) but fine with the simplicity in summons.

I want to play SCH, not a healer mixed with outdated 1.0 gameplay. I want to be able to actually PvP on SCH, not feeling so damn limited because we got no CC, also leeches 40 can die in a fire. a 60 sec recast on impossible to mico manage is not "not a problem" there is huge issues with that, I can't believe you are blindly defending a broken system just because you wan to accept things for how they are.

If 1.0 did not exist, you would not have SCH/ACN/SMN thing, all of it is based on that version of the game that was completely changed for 2.0 + meaning this current system of SMN and SCH does not fit the current game and shows with the imbalanced glameplay.

Like some other people already pointed out to you:

(1) It is not broken. It works just fine.

(2) Books fit both jobs perfectly. (How can you possibly say it doesnt? o_O)

(3) We can do without leeches just fine. This is coming from someone who lvled scholar when she was still a noob with noob gear in this game.
Why are you saying its not fine? Do YOU have trouble with it or had trouble with it? I remember having trouble with MP as a WHM but I really do
not remember having any issues with scholar....trust me, I would remember if there was anything really bad.

(4) PvP: Aura Blast: PvP-only Knockback
Miasma II: an instant, AoE DoT that applies -20% HP recovered by healing magic
Cross-Skill Blizzard II: an AoE Bind
Virus: temporarily weakens your target's by reducing his stats.

Now while it may not be the most OP crowd control there is, i wouldnt call that "No CC", you have ways to support your party and protect yourself a little.
I have played SCH in PvP and didnt find it nearly as bad as you make it out to be.
I'm actually a bit hesistant to call Miasma II and Virus CC, its more like a debuff support, I guess.
But theres still the Blizzard II and Knockback. And the other 2 can at least help/support.


Why are you so obsessed in pointing out its broken? It is not broken just because you might be having trouble with it.

[loreleidiangelo]

Miasma II and Virus are not crowd control by typical PVP definition; they are debuffs. Tbh, SCH could use a better peel in PVP or at least an instant pet resummon on a CD so they don't have to blow a Swiftcast that could be better served on a Blizzard II, but those aren't actually problems that stem from an ACN root, it's just poor PVP balance.

MP cost per potency and Aetherflow CD/rate of return ARE problems that stem from an ACN root though, and by the developers' own admission it's why SMN was left in such shoddy condition in Final Coil.

[Ama_Hamada]

It is working, that's the problem -.-
It's working so well that I'm disappointed that we aren't getting more. People say that "changing jobs is your spec change", not really, spec changing isn't supposed to take dozens of hours to be usable. And this is the good part of arcanists, I can change between the two without having to grind from level 1.
Scholar is a tactician and has always used books in the series (iirc some summoners could equip books as well). If we consider that the method of materializing egis is the same as Carbuncles, then their magic is arcanima; magic through numbers and equations. A book fits perfectly. Even if it didn't, what else would you have them equip? With red mage coming, we already have three staff weavers.

I don't understand your point on scholar DPS. What would you want for them to get or lose if they got split? I assumed that you wanted to take away the DPS abilities because that's the biggest difference between scholar and other healers, we evolve from a DPS class so half of our spells are designed to DPS.

As for summoner, Don't get me wrong, I'd love to summon Garuda like how we see in Xelphatol. But as I said, Yoshida is not willing to add the Ramuh and Leviathan that we were promised 3 years ago, invented that "glamour thing" so that he wouldn't have to care about adding new spells for each summon and, even though three of them have their models fully animated and are being used in the game (Ramuh, Phoenix, Sephirot), we're still stuck with Carbuncles (that don't even get proper animations for their attacks) and the original three. Let me repeat that - we were promised Ramuh and Leviathan in march 2014, three years ago. The point is: looking at this amount of neglect, do you honestly think that a summoner overhaul is possible?

Why are you so obsessed with Leeches? Thanks to your fairies have much higher healing power than any other healer in low levels so you shouldn't be having any trouble, please help me understand.1.

Implying AST or WHM can't dps... okay....
http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/jobs/summoner.shtml
knives, staffs, rods, flute, not books
summoners SUMMON!! Not DOT things to death, that is purely ACN, again playing like that is based off 1.0! If you want things like they are so badly, how come I do not see threads on make the job system back to what it was in 1.0? This is not 1.0, it needs to be changed, ACN/MSN/SCH is broken in 2.0+ game style.

What is there not to understand? where did I say I wanted take healer DPS away? that makes no sense. I want SCH/SMN/ACN split because it is broken in 2.0 since it is from what 1.0 had. The game was changed in 2.0 and with it, meant the SCH,SMN,ACN thing does not fit anymore.

Why am I obsessed with leeches? Oh i doono it is sometime called BALANCE!!!!! there is NO REASON TO MAKE IT 40 maybe???? Why are you so obsessed with keeping a broken system?

Now while it may not be the most OP crowd control there is, i wouldnt call that "No CC", you have ways to support your party and protect yourself a little.
I have played SCH in PvP and didnt find it nearly as bad as you make it out to be.
I'm actually a bit hesistant to call Miasma II and Virus CC, its more like a debuff support, I guess.
But theres still the Blizzard II and Knockback. And the other 2 can at least help/support.


Why are you so obsessed in pointing out its broken? It is not broken just because you might be having trouble with it.

SCH has no CC in PvP, thinking aura blast is worth something is foolish, esp with the game lag. Needing to point blank to bind as well does not have much value. The little value of CC we do have is only usable at point blank and that is ridiculous, do you even pvp at all?

I call the SCH/ACN/SMN broken because that is what it is, and makes it a nightmare trying to balance the jobs from having the 2 in 1 thing, like what loreleidiangelo pointed out.

Miasma II and Virus are not crowd control by typical PVP definition; they are debuffs. Tbh, SCH could use a better peel in PVP or at least an instant pet resummon on a CD so they don't have to blow a Swiftcast that could be better served on a Blizzard II, but those aren't actually problems that stem from an ACN root, it's just poor PVP balance.

I would say it is a combination of poor balancing and the 2 for 1 thing. After all SMN does get a bind....