What is it with some tanks, healers, and dps?

[KDSilver]

People are to be blamed for this.
Not everyone. Some of them.

Which one? Those who don't take the time to read the description of their skill at least, especially when they leveled up very fast.
Those who are trying and learning, it's okay, you need to practice anyway to feel confortable with your class and dungeons are the best way to do it.
The worst player are those who play terribly bad, probably never read the description of their skill, and when you nicely try to tell them what they should do, they insult you or refuse to consider what you're telling them.

But, in dungeons, you have to expect to meet every kind of player if you go in with the duty finder.
But, indeed, there are some basics you shouldn't explain to someone at lvl60. When I say basics, it's skill from lvl 1 to 30.

[AmalonStar]

OP, have you stopped to ask them why they're performing that way, or perhaps offer them tips? The game doesn't really guide people enough for them to always know how to maximize their potential at any level, and some people just don't know. If you're not going to try to help them, then don't complain about them I guess?

I have tried on numerous occasions most of the time I get hostility back from them when I ask them if they want some tips other times they just say no. In some cases I just don't know enough about the job they're playing to be able to offer any advice.

I've noticed a good number of ppl develop an attitude of 'I don't need any help, I know what I'm doing' when they start getting up higher lv's. I actually knew a person exactly like that, he figured he was the 'best' and if something went wrong he blamed everyone else for it. He was probably the worst tank I had ever seen and refused any advice offered to him by everyone.

[Kaethra]

The average MMO player:

Does not normally visit the games' forums.
Usually doesn't look at guides.
Likely doesn't understand the way their abilities interact.
Will know their role, but maybe not efficiently.
Doesn't know exactly what stats they need.
Knows telegraphs on the ground are bad, but may be slow to react/predict.
May not have their hotbar setup efficiently.
And various other little issues that just sort of addup over time to make them a detriment in some cases.

The good news is, a sizeable portion of these players realize their limitations and either get educated, practiced, or steer clear away from content where they know they are a drag. Others are either ignorant or arrogant.

So what can be done? Sadly nothing. You can kinda help them along if they are willing to be helped. But as far as SE is concerned there is no developer oriented change in the game that can be done. None.

Sadly how MMOs work is you either 'get it' or you don't. Anyone who grew up on Atari's, Intellivisions, and NES's will understand what I mean. If you remember in the late '70s and early '80s everyone tried video games. Some took to them well and became the first gamers. Others had fun, but lets face it.. they couldn't get to the blue screen in Astrosmash or past that first Goomba in SMB.

Some of you are saying that leveling is too fast. Too many are using PotD to level. I'm going to tell you this. It doesn't matter. An above average player can be thrown into the game at level 60, and make it work. Hell I did something like this to myself earlier today. Friend of mine wanted to do the Leveling roulette. NP.. cept he wanted to do it on his Warrior. Well shoot.. I wanted to run on my DK to level it. I already got my healer to 60, and the DPS I wanted to work on to 60. So what do I do, I want to put the exp to 'something'.

I took my summoner. I hadn't played the class since 2014. Hell even then I didn't level as a summoner, I did Scholar. Anyway.. I swapped in the gear and my hotbars seemed to be where I left them. Yeah the hell they were. So we load into the DF and get Stone Vigil. I'm sitting there using Ruin when I realize.. its an 80 potency attack. Well crap. I need to do something else. This isn't procing anything. While were on the first two pulls I'm glancing over my stuff.

Bio, Bio II, Aetherflow, Miasma, Fester, and Bane. Ok got it. Do this on groups, do that on single target. Before I got to the first boss, I had my level 43 rotation down, maybe not the level 50 one. But for what I was doing, I got it. That took me less than 5 minutes.

And you all are suggesting these people need slower leveling to learn class/role? It already takes about a few days speed leveling. A not above average player will likely take a week... probably more. If they haven't figured out their current abilities within an hour. How do you all expect them figure it out in a month?

The only thing that can help is a friendly mentor. A Freecompany member, friend, or what have you, sitting down and chatting with them about what to use, when, and why. Then they have to be receptive to the teaching and willing to learn and consider. Then maybe.. just maybe they might go beyond being 'average'. Many of them won't have the patience, some might think they are 'fine', others sadly will just not understand even when presented. There's nothing else that can be done at that point.

It does not take a month, weeks, or days to learn a job or role. Hell I've learned how to play classes/jobs in this game and others simply by reading lists of abilities on a website, even before I first login to the game. Not everyone can do that. And limiting where leveling can be done, or slowing it down does not help them and it punishes those of us who wish to get into the newer content. I already know how to do 1-60, I don't need to be slowed down on jobs that I still need to work on. Especially on a feckless attempt to help players with an issue that likely can't be helped (and those who can be helped, can simply be helped in a peer to peer manner).

This isn't to say to totally ignore and and wipe our hands clean of such players. I have a few friends in other games who have this issue. They know their limitation. I help them when I play the same games when I can. But they'll never do current end game content in any game. They shy away even from group content unless its a requirement for something. They're happy to do solo content that they know they can do.

[KDSilver]

And you all are suggesting these people need slower leveling to learn class/role? It already takes about a few days speed leveling. A not above average player will likely take a week... probably more. If they haven't figured out their current abilities within an hour. How do you all expect them figure it out in a month?

The problem isn't to level up fast actually. Where it is a problem is that these people get many new skill but are lazy to understand how it works.
I think that's it.
Of course, if you try to understand, you can level up fast and actually perform well. The least that could be expected.

[Silverquick]

The average MMO player:

Does not normally visit the games' forums.
Usually doesn't look at guides.
Likely doesn't understand the way their abilities interact.
Will know their role, but maybe not efficiently.
Doesn't know exactly what stats they need.
Knows telegraphs on the ground are bad, but may be slow to react/predict.
May not have their hotbar setup efficiently.
And various other little issues that just sort of addup over time to make them a detriment in some cases.

And you all are suggesting these people need slower leveling to learn class/role? It already takes about a few days speed leveling. A not above average player will likely take a week... probably more. If they haven't figured out their current abilities within an hour. How do you all expect them figure it out in a month?

The only thing that can help is a friendly mentor. A Freecompany member, friend, or what have you, sitting down and chatting with them about what to use, when, and why. Then they have to be receptive to the teaching and willing to learn and consider. Then maybe.. just maybe they might go beyond being 'average'. Many of them won't have the patience, some might think they are 'fine', others sadly will just not understand even when presented. There's nothing else that can be done at that point..

I get what you're saying man, I really do.

But seriously this game is worse than most for the speed level thing. I was just talking about this with my FC. I never even got to enjoy my newbie days which is where you get the chance to make all those mistakes before you get to the harder content and get thrown in with everyone else.

I was joking the other day along the lines of...

Ahhh... aahhhh... ahhh CHOOO!!...

DING!!...

...crap I leveled again.

If you sneeze wrong in this game you gain a level. And now you have guys that moved so fast... they never got that little grace period to make all those mistakes... so they're now making all those mistakes at the highest levels of the game where the people around them are actually expecting them to know what they're doing... and are very unforgiving about it.

Its not the newbies fault when the game slingshots him right into the place where everyone would reasonably expect them to be competent at what they're doing. Nor is it the upper level players fault for expecting them to be at least reasonably competent at those levels.

So you're in a catch 22...

[LunarEmerald]

I get what you're saying man, I really do.

But seriously this game is worse than most for the speed level thing. I was just talking about this with my FC. I never even got to enjoy my newbie days which is where you get the chance to make all those mistakes before you get to the harder content and get thrown in with everyone else.

I was joking the other day along the lines of...

Ahhh... aahhhh... ahhh CHOOO!!...

DING!!...

...crap I leveled again.

If you sneeze wrong in this game you gain a level. And now you have guys that moved so fast... they never got that little grace period to make all those mistakes... so they're now making all those mistakes at the highest levels of the game where the people around them are actually expecting them to know what they're doing... and are very unforgiving about it.

Its not the newbies fault when the game slingshots him right into the place where everyone would reasonably expect them to be competent at what they're doing. Nor is it the upper level players fault for expecting them to be at least reasonably competent at those levels.

So you're in a catch 22...

This is caused because people complain that the leveling progress is boring. They want to be at max level right away so they can play with their max level friends.

ARR fails at this because leveling in this game for the first time is pretty boring and the majority of ARR's main quest is garbage. The proper solution would be to make ARR good by pruning unnecessary quests but that's too time consuming for YoshiP. He rather apply a bandaid fix by making leveling faster.

[Kaethra]

Its not the newbies fault when the game slingshots him right into the place where everyone would reasonably expect them to be competent at what they're doing. Nor is it the upper level players fault for expecting them to be at least reasonably competent at those levels.

So you're in a catch 22...

I don't agree.

I remember doing Praetorium when it was new. When most hadn't done it yet. You know back before we all sped run the place and 6 out of 8 were watching cutscenes. There was still the handful here and there (about the same ratio as today) that didn't know their job and role. Its not because they leveled too fast. They just didn't learn it.

Part of this could be due to the game (and MMOs in general) allowing you to solo just a bit too much. Everquest in the 1999-2006 timeframe was not a solo friendly game. You typically solo'd to level 5. You could get away with maybe 35-40 on all the classes, but it'd be slow going. Either way, you'd hit what I'd call a soloing cap. Because the stuff you want to solo, is usually going to be much lower than you. Once you get to a certain point, the stuff you can take on will stop giving exp.

Yes.. some classes were a bit better than others for soloing. But you had to really know what you were going to be doing when you did it, as there was a regression penalty for failure.

But with that said. I am NOT prepared to say that soloing needs to go. And I'm not going to say that we need penalties for failure harsher than they are. There's a reason why that game peaked out at 750,000 in 2005 and we have millions here. But I bring it up to explain a bit of the situation.

But even still, like I said, some just won't get it. I mentioned friends earlier.. I met them in EQ. They weren't good at the game. If it weren't for my help, they'd never be able to do post level 40 content in that game when max level was 70. Imagine if they came to FFXIV and ended up in your group in Duty Finder. No worries, I'm not going to do that to all of you

Could be worse. Could be like Planetside 2 which as a MMOFPS takes a fresh level 1 out of character creation and drops them in the middle of 100-120's and they're expected to learn.. quick. To put it shortly, those who can learn, do so. Those that don't, well they just don't unfortunately.

[AmalonStar]

Part of the problem I find actually is that ppl just do what they want simply because most of the time ppl will just keep going and get that dungeon done and over with than kick someone and wait for someone new to join. I blame the duty finder as one of the catalysts for lazy players not learning thier jobs because it just simply puts the party together for you so you don't need to learn your job.

[KDSilver]

There's a difference between not kwowing everything your class can do and refusing to do it on purpose.
There's no point in playing astrologian over white mage if you're not drawing cards at all.
This isn't like everyone like to say "a different playstyle" (it's commonly used nowadays to justify any kind of behaviour it would seem...)
It's just being lazy indeed, but no reason.

Like one day, I went to Dun Scaith as a Dragoon. I died (while I though I did the mecanic right, but it can happen to everyone).
I waited a Raise.... I waited... both healer were dpsing and.... i had nothing?
So of course I asked if I could get a Raise. The healer told me that I didn't have to die. Having a healer who refuse to raise is something bad for such a content as 24 man raid so, I vote kicked him. The other healer got offended that it was a vote kick abuse because we can't vote kick someone because he has a "different playstyle".
Refusing to raise as a healer is a "playstyle".

Where is the community going. The worst thing, he didn't got kick. (probably because he was a healer, but even so...)

[Kaethra]

Where is the community going.

You bring up some good facts. But its not just FFXIV. Other games, MMOs and even simple multiplayer games have the same issue. The problem is cultural. And even extends beyond gaming in general though I'm not going to go there as that topic goes beyond the scope of these forums.

In general its apathy. Both towards others and one's self. In your example of not getting a raise.. if this was 15 years ago, you'd have been raised/rez'd in a heart beat. Even 10 years ago you would have been picked up.. maybe ribbed a bit for dying, but still picked up.

Now its 'just another dumb DPS that got themselves killed, whatever.' Never mind the reason, the condition, or whatever. Even I've been known to make offhand comments in my TS server to my friends when something like that happens to a random in the group. Course.. I still pick up the person as I don't hold such happenstances against them. Even if I utter something stupid under my breath. I'm not going to allow my annoyance (or amusement) to hurt them.

But not everyone is like that unfortunately. My point of view is everyone gets a shot. Everyone gets a mulligan. Everyone gets a chance to have fun so long as they aren't trying to wreck it for anyone. Basically if everyone is being cool to one another. I'm going to overlook mistakes. I'm going to pick up the slack. That's just what you do in a team oriented environment. It is a game after all.

And truth be told, its usually like that. People are cool. I've had the luxury of the last few days of good groups. People chat a little, as much as they can considering working through the content. Crack a joke, and just all round being pleasant towards one another. We do sometimes remember the bad more than the good. I can remember quite vividly a group I ran about 2 weeks ago where someone had the gall to tell me I was bad at my healing because I didn't rez him mid fight (was low on MP and tank was low on HP, the thing called priority kicked in). To make a long story short, I let the insults roll off my back until the dumb player decided to keep it up till the end of the dungeon. So I vote kicked him. Apparently the group was waiting for me to do it. And glad to see him go. Smooth sailing after that.

But today I ran at least six or seven dungeons and all were outstanding. Some close calls from incidents beyond our control (just bad luck). But no one got antsy, everyone understood and we just kept at it. More importantly, had fun.