New player... Archer for now need some advice.

[Knahli]

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that pulling is annoying if done intentionally, thus why I always use Quelling Strikes when I can, but there is something gratifying about ripping the boss off the tank during my opener despite Quelling Strikes being up the entire time.

I'll never understand this sentiment *laughs*. Stealing aggro says nothing other than one of the following:

-Tank wasn't paying that much attention
-Tank is undergeared relative to the DPS
-Tank stumbled at the controls

If I ever rip aggro as a Bard I feel like I did something wrong because I wasn't paying attention to the aggro bars and sometimes go as far as to apologise for doing so. Though, admittedly, if I am a Tank I feel responsible for losing it in the first place, normally because I essentially go on auto pilot and lost it due to negligence.

[GunksFoy]

Snip

If you're pulling off an undergeared tank, nothing you can do about that except try to slow down a bit, and there's nothing good about that. If a dps is using their aggro dump, I.e Quelling, and they pull, it's never their fault. It's not my job to watch aggro, that's why tanks have aggro abilities and I don't. If the tank is losing due to laziness/negligence, I have no sympathy. I play my jobs to the best of my ability at all times, so when another player isn't doing the same, I refuse to feel bad.

[Fluffernuff]

If you're pulling off an undergeared tank, nothing you can do about that except try to slow down a bit, and there's nothing good about that. If a dps is using their aggro dump, I.e Quelling, and they pull, it's never their fault. It's not my job to watch aggro, that's why tanks have aggro abilities and I don't. If the tank is losing due to laziness/negligence, I have no sympathy. I play my jobs to the best of my ability at all times, so when another player isn't doing the same, I refuse to feel bad.

I would count "lower aggro generation" as an "aggro ability". to say it's not your job to watch your own aggro is completely false. it's also completely false to claim it is the tank's job either. Tanks can't control YOUR enmity in any way, shape, or form. So why is it fair to claim it's their job to?

No, a tank's "job" is to GENERATE their OWN enmity. there's a huge difference here.

[GunksFoy]

I would count "lower aggro generation" as an "aggro ability". to say it's not your job to watch your own aggro is completely false. it's also completely false to claim it is the tank's job either. Tanks can't control YOUR enmity in any way, shape, or form. So why is it fair to claim it's their job to?

No, a tank's "job" is to GENERATE their OWN enmity. there's a huge difference here.

Guess you missed the part where I said "if they are using their aggro dump, it isn't their fault". A tank literally has one job, hold aggro. Therefore, watching aggro is, in fact, their job.

[Fluffernuff]

Guess you missed the part where I said "if they are using their aggro dump, it isn't their fault". A tank literally has one job, hold aggro. Therefore, watching aggro is, in fact, their job.

if this is about "missing parts" then you missed the part where i said that generating my own enmity is different than "watching aggro"



it's my job to be at the top, sure, but it's NOT my job to make sure you're 4th or 8th. That's the huge difference, here.

If things are as you say, then NIN wouldn't be a staple raid pick. Shadewalker and smokescreen are HIGHLY valued for aggro control. Is NIN a tank? No? guess it isn't their job to watch aggro, then.

I took issue with your claim that DPS don't have a responsibility over their own aggro. You do. I can't control your aggro. You can. It's not my job to babysit you.


Out-DPSing the tank's aggro generation even with those tools is a different story, though I'll concede that point. There are a whole slew of reasons why a tank might not actually be able to hold that emnity. However, that point wasn't one I was arguing.

I might be able to know what i'm doing, but good luck to me if I try to tank Qarn on a PLD with a half-competent BLM. Heck, a 280 weapon+270 augmented shire BLM in Ex roulette is going to give any newly 230 tank alot of issues. Issues they don't have the tools handle.


We agreed before that constantly fighting for aggro is detrimental for the group, so if you generate that much aggro(sometimes its unfortunately unavoidable), you put yourself in an awkward situation. continuing to blatantly disregard the chaos you are causing because "its not my job, tank sucks, GG" harms everyone. Is your DPS you're losing by cooling off and letting things go under control worth crippling your melees? is it worth taxing the healer or possibly getting their buttcheeks cleaved apart? is it worth potentially killing yourself for?

Fact is, the moment you pull aggro when it's "not your job to have it" makes it your repsonsibility to handle it while you're getting your face beat in. However, DPS as a whole is ill eqiupped to deal with having aggro. this is why they have tools to at least try to remove it. Sounds like it's your responsibility to avoid stepping in your tank's shoes for your own sake.



All I'm really taking issue with is when you say the DPS doesn't have responsibility over aggro. It's just so blatantly false and it "triggers" me. is that the buzzword now? I think it's the buzzword now. In any case, I hope you don't take my tone as aggressive against you, because I'm really not. This aggro discussion might be better off in it's own thread, I fear it's a bit off topic. I apologize for initiating it.

[GunksFoy]

Ninja is staple of raiding because of the innate buff they get from Warrior's being in the party, plus Trick Attack, as well as the fact that Shadewalker and Smokescreen allow for tanks to stay in DPS stance longer therefore pushing higher DPS overall, along with not being the worst dps available.

However, I think we may be arguing the same point in a different way. I wasn't necessarily referring to raids where every bit of dps counts, and you need to manage your aggro a little more thoroughly. However, at the end of the day, no matter how much I stare at the aggro bar as a DPS there is nothing I can do beyond using my aggro skills. Therefore we come back around to it being the tanks responsibility. I'd like to clarify this by saying I don't mean a tank spamming the aggro combo and doing everything they can losing hate can be helped, but if they are alternating between aggro and dps or sitting in their dps stance, they do indeed need to watch aggro and if they are losing it, they need to change and adapt as opposed to the dps slowing down to compensate.

[Neela]

I'll never understand this sentiment *laughs*. Stealing aggro says nothing other than one of the following:

-Tank wasn't paying that much attention
-Tank is undergeared relative to the DPS
-Tank stumbled at the controls

If I ever rip aggro as a Bard I feel like I did something wrong because I wasn't paying attention to the aggro bars and sometimes go as far as to apologise for doing so. Though, admittedly, if I am a Tank I feel responsible for losing it in the first place, normally because I essentially go on auto pilot and lost it due to negligence.

or and thats what im encountering lately very often... they throw out only 1x enmity rota and than switch to dps rota or even try to tank off stance... it's getting trendy and I don't know why... I never used Quelling in dailys because I never had to... but nowadays I have to... cause tanks, like healers are thinking their task is to deal as much dmg as they can. which is good if they don't fuck up everyone else while doing this – also I noticed that they only focus on the current mob target... what is really bad if you have a high geared Blm or Smn in your grp... I got much mob attention after every single Deathflare... and like Fluffer said I won't hold back just because of some extra-tank dps - it's my job to deal dmg and my own goal to stay on top of the DD enmity bar, yours is to hold that mob aggro no matter how strong your DDs seems to be. ^^

[Recklessfun]

OK so I finally got my bard crystal this weekend and to lvl 40....anyone play a bard that could tell me a good rotation for me? I see rotations on searches but only for lvl 60. I don't completely understand the shots quite yet but like I said I only started less then a month ago.

[enthauptet]

At level 50 you basically want to apply straight shot, use barrage on heavy shot and keep your dots up and press OGCDs (blunt arrow, repelling shot) when they come up. That and use cooldowns together (i.e. blood for blood and hawk's eye) and that's about it.

[Recklessfun]

Don't u have to do a decent amount to get blood for blood? I have my bard at 40 like I said and the pugilist of course at 15 and that's it. I didn't know u had to lvl all these toons to get skills lol.