On Xelphatol and the Actual Summoner.

[AmalonStar]

First off if you are wanting things like FFXI then go play FFXI, this is FFXIV

So... you want SMN to be a healer/support role? I think we are a little late in the game for such a big change, if SE where to do this I would stop playing SMN, I actually like SMN on FFXIV because it is diffrent from FFXI

the Dev's for FFXIV have taken a diffrent view on SMN and if you ask me a better one than FFXI

from what I am seeing and based on the story line in the SMN quests any future summons will be like the ablity Deathflare

The whole point of this thread is about the fact smn on XIV is more of a joke on the smn job, every ff game ever made smn has always been based around the use of alot of different smn's with different abilities and strengths. Any true ff fan doesn't like when they stray too far from from what the classic job roles are in ff games and the various elements that have always defined the series, take the movie ff spirits within when that had come out the shear outrage from the ff fans was huge because it had nothing in it that related to ff at all. Like it was an alright movie but wasn't deserving of the name and I think thats what everyone is kind of getting at with smn in XIV

As for you saying for me to go back to XI in all honestly if they didn't stop making expansions for it I would have stayed playing it and I can probably say that a very large portion of the current ff XIV player base would have stayed with it too.

I get them wanting to try and put a new take on things but they shouldn't stray too far from what the jobs roots are, if they want to make a well known job and make it into something its not they should be making completely new jobs rather than labeling them with a classic job name.

[Neela]

I get them wanting to try and put a new take on things but they shouldn't stray too far from what the jobs roots are, if they want to make a well known job and make it into something its not they should be making completely new jobs rather than labeling them with a classic job name.

+1

well let's see how RDM will do in this point of view... ; )

[SaitoHikari]

The way I see it, the eventual nuking of the base classes is probably going to matter a lot more for SMN/SCH than it does for every other job. That would in theory allow the devs to rebalance/redesign both classes freely and independently of each other.

My actual pipe dream is that Scholar ends up inheriting most of the leftover Arcanist quirks as the vast majority of the Arcanist skills appear to have been designed with SCH in mind rather than SMN, while SMN gets redesigned from the ground up. Nothing quite as drastic as SMN losing all of their DoTs, I'm mainly talking about moving all of the Bios/Misamas to being SCH exclusive and giving SMN new DoT skills in their place that are more visually in line with what SMNs do in other FF games. It could also free up the summons to play a greater role in the SMN playing style, maybe even swapping them more easily/swapping them factoring far more into a theorized redesigned SMN, as they would no longer be just a transformed carbuncle.

(Of course, such a thing would also probably lead to the loss of quirks such as SMNs being able to revive party members in an emergency...)

A couple quick examples of what such a thing could mean:
- SMN starts as a Gridania job instead of Limsa Lominsa, as the job instructor is there.
- SMN gains Ifrit-egi at Lv. 20 instead of Lv. 30 (job quest to summon would require you having defeated Ifrit in the story first)
- DoTs would have more of an elemental theme rather than awkwardly poison-based, for example, skills inflicting burns, wind damage over time, water dropsy, sludge.

[Konungarike]

Any true ff fan doesn't like when they stray too far from from what the classic job roles are in ff games and the various elements that have always defined the series,
(...)
As for you saying for me to go back to XI in all honestly if they didn't stop making expansions for it I would have stayed playing it and I can probably say that a very large portion of the current ff XIV player base would have stayed with it too.

Frankly, you don't get to decide wether I am a "true ff fan" or not. Also, that's a pretty heftily generalised statement about a "very large portion" of the FFXIV playerbase having stayed with FFXI if it was still updated. You got data to support how many XIV players were players of XI? You have a census of how many of them would prefer XI? Please link your sources.

[Jerbob]

So... you want SMN to be a healer/support role?

Please please please stop saying this. It is absolutely, spectacularly untrue, and is based on a complete misconception. Spreading this lie as a counterpoint to any reference to XI's summoner is unhelpful at best and dishonest at worst. It is deeply irritating to read for a person who actually plays the job.

It's very true that XI's summoner very was badly balanced for a long time. Its support abilities and DD abilities were weak, its MP management was terrible, and it couldn't contribute as well in groups as a lot of other jobs. It shined in some areas - it was a niche soloist, for example - but there was a lot wrong with it.

The only reason it was treated as a healer is because it had a large MP pool and could (in XIV vocabulary) cross class Cure and Esuna at a basically acceptable potency. Even with these limited tools, it was really bad at that role. It had no native healing spells (beyond a couple of niche healing support abilities on a one minute timer), and healing was never an intended use of the job. In short, XI's SMN has never been a healer or support specialist. It's mechanically incapable of being a healer beyond a strange blip in what in XIV would be considered cross-class actions.

XI's summoner continues to develop and is in a fantastic place at the moment. It's still not a healer, and the vast majority of the mechanical problems are now repaired. It's a hybrid job with damage dealing and support options that are entirely based on summoning. It doesn't even have any native spells beyond its summoning abilities. Further still, summoners are the preferred damage dealing job for certain types of content.

I'm sorry if your only experience of XI's SMN was during the "dark ages" when it was quite literally broken. They were hard times for any summoner to get through - I know, I did it. But things have changed. It's time that people on the XIV forums recognised that, ironically, their perception of XI's Summoner is completely out of date. Whether that makes it "better" than XIV's SMN is of course still a matter of personal preference, but it's important to at least get the facts correct before making the comparison.

With reference to the above post, I play XI and I prefer it. I have very good friends who play XIV and I very much enjoy playing with them, but I don't feel that XIV is a better game. It's certainly pretty, though, and I can appreciate that.

[HoodRat]

Can someone explain to me what an "actual summoner" is? When I think of summoner, I think of the ones from ff3, 4 and 5...who were basically useless because I typically had all the enemies dead before I could finish casting one summon (Rydia would be the exception because she could cast other spells like summoner can on 14).

[AmalonStar]

Frankly, you don't get to decide wether I am a "true ff fan" or not. Also, that's a pretty heftily generalised statement about a "very large portion" of the FFXIV playerbase having stayed with FFXI if it was still updated. You got data to support how many XIV players were players of XI? You have a census of how many of them would prefer XI? Please link your sources.

I'm not deciding who is and who isn't a true final fantasy fan, that was a general statement I know better than to try telling a person if they're a true ff fan or not because unless I know them personally I would have no idea.


Secondly I said a very large portion of the player base because I don't know exact numbers, I based that statement from how many ppl I've met while playing this that are old ff XI players and what they've said to me as well as from ppl that used to play this that had also been long time ff XI players that don't play it anymore because they didn't like various aspects about it that SE had varied from they didn't go back to XI either cause they are no new expansions being made for it.

I've also met a good number of ppl in game that wished they had the opportunity to have played ff XI but due to them being younger in age had never gotten the chance, so yea IF they make a new expansion for ff XI I do believe they would be a significant drop in XIV's player base switching back over to XI.

[Jerbob]

Can someone explain to me what an "actual summoner" is? When I think of summoner, I think of the ones from ff3, 4 and 5...who were basically useless because I typically had all the enemies dead before I could finish casting one summon (Rydia would be the exception because she could cast other spells like summoner can on 14).

I don't think anyone can answer this as we all have different ideas about the term.

For me, in an MMO context it's a job where there's a pet that is the primary (preferably only!) focus of the job. The older single player Final Fantasy games, with the summons are just massive AoE nukes, I think aren't suitable for the MMO environment - though that's not to say limit breaks and job capstones can't include the feel of a "summon X, destroy everything" style effect.

XIV's SMN is not an "actual summoner" to me because 95% of the job doesn't actually involve summoning anything or interacting with your summoned pets. SE have tried to make excuses for that and justify their "reinterpretation" as valid, but my personal feeling is that it's another class dressed up in a horn and green robes.

Again, my thoughts, not facts.

[Zhamkyong]

Can someone explain to me what an "actual summoner" is? When I think of summoner, I think of the ones from ff3, 4 and 5...who were basically useless because I typically had all the enemies dead before I could finish casting one summon (Rydia would be the exception because she could cast other spells like summoner can on 14).

As an example, in FFV you could (after defeating the primal/avatar) use theyr power as spells like a BLM or a WHM fashion, generally a powerfull AoE DD ability, CC in some cases, or a powerfull heal. In FFX, Yunas reference, it was used as a powerful pet who replaced the whole party. In FFXI, it was a petclass who only has summoning skills. Each Avatar/Primal has his own set of abilities which the summoner can call forth when the Avatar is on the field. In FFVI you could "equip" them as Magicite to learn magic and use their signature moves too.

Basically, the summoner it's a mage who uses the Avatar, Primal powers to call them forth in some fashion of spell, thats it.

The Trance goes in the right direction if we look at a summoner from the earlier series, where the caster uses the power of the primal (in this case, Deadflare) but we also have pets based on the aether of Ifrit, Titan and Garuda with their own abilities, and "signature moves" so to speak. Problem is, that it's only one tiny part of the job because the whole system is based on DoTs from a base class, Arcanist. If the Sumoner had changed these abilities in a fashion of name and visual to represent some sort of "primal attack" i believe there would not be such a fuss over the class itself. But for now, summonerly speaking we have the 3 pets and the Trance.

And also a Glamour incoming for the pets.

[Zojha]

Nothing quite as drastic as SMN losing all of their DoTs, I'm mainly talking about moving all of the Bios/Misamas to being SCH exclusive and giving SMN new DoT skills in their place that are more visually in line with what SMNs do in other FF games.

They could also take the DoTs and visually make them mini-summons that attack the enemy for a certain amount of time before they fade. Even if it's no substantial change, it would go a long way of helping the summoner feel more like a summoner since he, well...summons stuff!

Ruin III could have been a disembodied Bahamut Claw that spawns at the enemy and strikes, rather than an energy beam - Which would have made the mana reduction during Dreadwyrm Trance all that much more plausible. Even with the gameplay set in stone, they could do better at making summoning a more central theme of the job.