Korean fan fest translation says ast changes balanced healers, do you agree?

[Fernosaur]

I hope they adress the WHM issue in 4.0, but I don't know how they won't make at least ONE healer job mandatory with 3 healers and 2 spots. Even if, in a perfect world, healers are all equally balanced, theory crafting will prove that bringing X and Y jobs will be more optimized and Z healer, while perfectly fine will be left out. You just can't balance equally 3 healers with only 2 spots, so I don't know what to expect.

I completely agree with this. There's no way to not make one of the three jobs relatively "mandatory" when it comes to raid utility with the game design we have right now. There's always gonna be a superior composition unless all three healers are streamlined to perform exactly the same with no variables in playstyle, even if said composition applies to different encounters.

That said, the power gap between the three jobs shouldn't be as big as it is right now with WHM vs the other two. The ideal would be that the risk-reward for bringing X healing class be more or less the same for all three classes. Right now there's no risk in bringing a WHM, but there's also no real reward other than the base minimum, whereas bringing an AST poses a minimal and arguably nonexistant risk for an extremely overblown reward. SCH sits in a place where its risk-reward ratio is dependant on the other healer, although the reward for bringin a SCH is of course much bigger than the one gotten from bringing a WHM. The thing is, with AST and WHM having so much reliable healing power, the risk of bringing SCH is also moot given how well the job's kit complements the other two.

[Docteur_Fluttershy]

today, if you compare what the 3 healers bring in every way, with their downside, you have this:

taking healing as response to direct high damage hit :
WHM: good healing capacity (excel in AoE, medium in solo target, medium to bad in two to several target), no mitigation, lowest shielding (SS), worst mana management, no sure-hit casts (forget that if acc cap, but that's still a thing), no raid buff
AST: good healing capacity (excel at solo target, excel at dual or several targets, medium to bad in AoE), best mana management, highest mitigation, good shielding, 2/3 sure-hit casts, excel at raid buff
SCh: good healing capacity (excel at solo target, excel to good in AoE, medium in two to several targets), very high mana management, very high mitigation, best shielding, 2/5 sure hit? (cannot remember atm, will edit later), selene for raid buff.

Damage wise, i'm not sure. If you take into consideration the global DPS a healer can bring alone, AST would come first because he can balance himself, but in actual fight he will never do that. Sch has a lower dps than the other two, but with the fairy he has the most windows to do so, and WHM, even if he has the highest potency (out of combust II), his really low substain dps hinder him a lot, so for me, outside of raid buff, they are all more or less on the same spot.

Since i'm pretty sure i'm gonna get answers about the healing kits above, some few things, based on the maximum each healer CAN use (even if no one would do it, the possibility exists)

highest potency "usable AoE heal" is indom (400 potency). Cure III(550) is never "needed", unless you want to solo heal. (and cure III is a perfect example of high skill with drawback, since it has small radius. Assize is related to mp management, so you cant really "keep it" as much as you would want.

highest potency AoE heal: cure III.

Highest solo heal is benediction(5min), followed by either 3xlustrate(1min) or Essential dignity(40s), then tetragram(1min), and benefic II / cure II.

duo to several healing, you have synastry or lustrate spam, or dual cureII+tetra, beneficII+ED.

Mitigation: enhanced bole+e4e(smn)+virus(smn)+disable+CU => 56.6% damage reduction for AST, against 44.92%(dome, e4e, virus, fairy shield) for SCh and 23.5% (virus(smn) and e4e) for WHM.

shielding: crit adlo (20k+ shield)

healing boost:
-WHM: 7.5% (30% up 25% of the time)
-AST(not taking noct passive +10% into it):
-for 2 synastries: (CO on 1 synastry) 5.55% for all heals, 7.77% if two targets to heal
-for 1 synastry with CO : 6% for all heals, 8.4% if two targets to heal
-for 1 synastry with no Co: 4.44% for all heals, 6.2% if two targets to heal
-SCH: 20% (fairy 20% for 30s, then dissipation for 20% for the next30s, then repeat)

on raid buff aspect, i'm not gonna make a description as we all know AST totaly crap on other healers with balance alone.


What could be made on the other hand, is make each healer has a weakness, as it was the case in 2.0. Sch didnt have any "decent" way to heal AoE damage, and WHM had even worse mana management that he has now, with no mitigation.
Whatever they will do to the 3 healers regardless will be useless depending on how the raid will work. A raid where there is no dps window might make sch less desirable than AST, and AST + WHM a bit more desirable.

[Ghishlain]

I'd just want to slip in that this was primarily for merit point parties (or meripo). Back in the days White mages were still very desired for endgame content. Just not for the exp grind after hitting level cap. This applied to Paladins too and heavily favoured certain jobs depending on the area. In particular Bards were almost mandatory when you're in a group full of strangers.

As for the exp parties to get to said level cap, it kind of depends on the level range and area. Due to getting some spells and abilities at certain levels (like Refresh/haste), Red Mage became significantly more desired from that point onwards

This is true. If anything XI had quite a lot and differing horror stories and stigmas when you involve the farming of EXP. RDM or bust was pretty much how it goes for a healer. You were basically a lol2handerDPS if you weren't a SAM though most 2-hander DPS were still much better off and considered more often as a DPS compared to all dual-wielding DPS jobs. BST, PUP, and SMN all had to solo to 75 because pet job stigma. Similar with BLM (and by extension SCH) had to solo killing beastman pets. Etc. Etc.

XI was a very exclusionary game at times.

[Yuyuka3]

More about XI

Yes, I heared the rest of that, too. Which is part of why I said they don't learn from their mistakes. They released AST pretty weak, and ended up overbuffing it just as they ultimately overbuffed WHM in XI. I don't want them to overbuff WHM in turn now, but I can't see how they would balance healers without giving WHM something besides healing. I don't want to see any healer have a mandatory raid spot.

However, I, personally, can say that the party finders I followed back in 3.0 never excluded AST. All raids I have seen back then wanted either AST or WHM since, well, trololol fairy and DPS saved SCH that spot. My own group actually ran WHM/AST and, hey, it worked. We both felt AST needs a slight buff, but even my partner agreed that they overdid it in the end.

[Ghishlain]

Yes, I heared the rest of that, too. Which is part of why I said they don't learn from their mistakes. They released AST pretty weak, and ended up overbuffing it just as they ultimately overbuffed WHM in XI. I don't want them to overbuff WHM in turn now, but I can't see how they would balance healers without giving WHM something besides healing. I don't want to see any healer have a mandatory raid spot.

If anything, I would disagree and say S-E did learn something about balance. Due to the significantly simpler nature of XIV versus XI it's much easier to balance jobs and thus make the game much more inclusive than XI was. IE, until recently Geomancer was the defacto support job in XI and NOTHING could displace it from that throne. A friend of mine tells me GEO is just so powerful in the support category they basically count as three DPS in a single slot - thus single handed excluding several other support jobs handily such as Bard.

While it's true some kits would be better at least not everyone would be excluded either. SCH and WAR being basically auto-includes should (hopefully) change when Stormblood comes out as that gives S-E the opportunity to shake up the composition meta greatly at that juncture. However, due to optimization I don't think there will never be a juncture in the game where a job isn't considered "auto-include" in a composition due to just how their kits are at the time of that patch cycle. The best they can do is try to keep the respective roles in the game as closely tuned as possible.

However, I, personally, can say that the party finders I followed back in 3.0 never excluded AST. All raids I have seen back then wanted either AST or WHM since, well, trololol fairy and DPS saved SCH that spot. My own group actually ran WHM/AST and, hey, it worked. We both felt AST needs a slight buff, but even my partner agreed that they overdid it in the end.

It's funny because I also raided as an AST during the 3.0 era. My partner was a WHM and I would pick either AST or SCH depending on the fight, though we also hit the A3S brick wall. Ah well.

In terms of overdoing it, I know a lot of people are in agreement with that sentiment and I feel it's just a means of them to push AST back from obscurity. I'm expecting Balance to get toned down immensely or an entire card kit rework for AST in Stormsblood. Holding my breath until I see the patch notes though since my confidence in the development team is extremely shaky right now.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I'm expecting Balance to get toned down immensely or an entire card kit rework for AST in Stormsblood. Holding my breath until I see the patch notes though since my confidence in the development team is extremely shaky right now.

I'm really just hoping SE sees the problem for what it is. I have this feeling that SE sees healer balance as "as long as they can heal the content it's fine".
I hope I'm wrong,

Back in 2.0, I would have had utmost faith in them coming to a satisfying conclusion. Now? I'm scared of they even KNOW what's wrong in the first place. 3.0 had been all over the place in terms of balance, from AST to MCH to DARK to PLD to Bard to Monk to both casters to Gordias itself.

Sigh, here's hoping.

[Yuyuka3]

If anything, I would disagree and say S-E did learn something about balance. Due to the significantly simpler nature of XIV versus XI it's much easier to balance jobs and thus make the game much more inclusive than XI was. IE, until recently Geomancer was the defacto support job in XI and NOTHING could displace it from that throne. A friend of mine tells me GEO is just so powerful in the support category they basically count as three DPS in a single slot - thus single handed excluding several other support jobs handily such as Bard.

Yet with AST, they created a class that is pretty hard to balance. It's either too strong or too weak compared to the other healers because it basically is both fused into one. We had both sides already. In the beginning, AST couldn't pull its weight in people's eyes, and now it's so op because of it's healing power combined with its buffing power that many people just don't want a WHM altogether. Healing just as good as WHM and shielding more consistently than SCH due to the higher potency. That "MC static looking for AST and SCH" pf I meantioned in an earlier post wasn't a lie, and there are many more of them. I guess the only reason not more people run double-AST now is the fairy...

While it's true some kits would be better at least not everyone would be excluded either. SCH and WAR being basically auto-includes should (hopefully) change when Stormblood comes out as that gives S-E the opportunity to shake up the composition meta greatly at that juncture. However, due to optimization I don't think there will never be a juncture in the game where a job isn't considered "auto-include" in a composition due to just how their kits are at the time of that patch cycle. The best they can do is try to keep the respective roles in the game as closely tuned as possible.

I really hope so, too. They also mentioned they want to try that. Just hope they really do it. But then they said they want to concentrate on tank balance and healers are fine, so it's a mixed bag for me.

It's funny because I also raided as an AST during the 3.0 era. My partner was a WHM and I would pick either AST or SCH depending on the fight, though we also hit the A3S brick wall. Ah well.

=)

In terms of overdoing it, I know a lot of people are in agreement with that sentiment and I feel it's just a means of them to push AST back from obscurity. I'm expecting Balance to get toned down immensely or an entire card kit rework for AST in Stormsblood. Holding my breath until I see the patch notes though since my confidence in the development team is extremely shaky right now.

I really, really hope they will... but ever since 3.0, I'm really not sure if they even know what they are doing, just like Exiled_Tonberry above me. That's why I've been against a fourth healer, too. Don't disturb the already very messy healer balance (or lack thereof) even more by adding a new healer, please, and fix the many serious problems first.

[Ghishlain]

Yet with AST, they created a class that is pretty hard to balance. It's either too strong or too weak compared to the other healers because it basically is both fused into one. We had both sides already. In the beginning, AST couldn't pull its weight in people's eyes, and now it's so op because of it's healing power combined with its buffing power that many people just don't want a WHM altogether. Healing just as good as WHM and shielding more consistently than SCH due to the higher potency. That "MC static looking for AST and SCH" pf I meantioned in an earlier post wasn't a lie, and there are many more of them. I guess the only reason not more people run double-AST now is the fairy...

I personally found AST to be quite serviceable in 3.07. Where things started to go down hill for me was (1) Luminious Aether buff and (2) Balance. If they kept the 3.07 kit + current card changes but not Balance, I don't think AST would be far off. Healer identity aside of course. I made some rediculously long write up back in the 3.0 era where I thought it would be neat if Sect swapping was enabled and had specific card draws and healer bonuses based on the sect being used at the time with synergies occuring as you make the swap. It was pretty much shot down but I liked the idea as a whole, lol.

Fairy is pretty OP on its own right. Let's just take Eos and break her down:
(1) 4,000 potency of healing every minute at 0 GCD and 0 MP to the SCH
(2) Near Medica II strength AoE HoT w/ Rouse in both a lesser duration and 0 MP every minute for every party member within range
(3) Foresight-like MDef buff every two minutes for every party member within range
(4) 20% Cure Potency bonus buff every two minutes for every healer within range

That's a lot of power in a single package. It's just no where near as noticeable as Balance though since Balance says "Increase your damage by 20%" and thus Balance's effect is immediately tangible. Eos.... not so much =p And that's not even getting into the rest of the SCH kit either.

I'll say this - at least we aren't WoWlogs. lol. Last time I looked at that all I saw in like the top.... 400 I think DPS was Shadow Priest. And this was for every single raid in the game at the time I looked at it about three months ago.

XIV's strengths are the synergies they can provide and I feel that's a good strategy to work with. BRD DRG MCH NIN is a DPS powerful composition because all their buffs synergize well with each other and still provide bonuses to both the tanks and healers as well. It's just absolutely nuts. But this is what they should be going for if they're looking for balance and inclusion I feel. At least partially.

If they were to build similar synergies with other jobs, we might see more inclusion. IE, (speculation only) if RDM was given a melee LB we may see RDM BLM SMN BRD become a thing since BRD would have the means to boost pretty much 5/8 members while maintaining a good diverse range of LB. Someone in another thread mentioned Stone doing magical Blunt damage so you start building synergies between WHM and MNK and if we get another blunt DPS in the future, that's even more synergies. Then players could start with a core and look for specific jobs suitable for their current makeup and thus begin to include more players.

This won't change what will eventually become a fully optimized composition for a raid tier but for those who want to play what they enjoy, they'll look for jobs that'll share obvious strengths with themselves and build around it which (hopefully) will make the game more accepting of non-optimal compositions.

I really hope so, too. They also mentioned they want to try that. Just hope they really do it. But then they said they want to concentrate on tank balance and healers are fine, so it's a mixed bag for me.

As I mentioned above I really disliked the LA buff and the Balance buff. My confidence in S-E about healer balance is fairly low primarily because of these changes, let alone the fact that they're just buffing AST with everything but the kitchen sink. I would've much preferred they let people find the strengths of AST on their own but not they just shoe horned AST right out of the gate. So... yeah >>;....

I really, really hope they will... but ever since 3.0, I'm really not sure if they even know what they are doing, just like Exiled_Tonberry above me. That's why I've been against a fourth healer, too. Don't disturb the already very messy healer balance (or lack thereof) even more by adding a new healer, please, and fix the many serious problems first.

Pretty much agreed here too. While I personally would like to see Dancer introduced as a melee style healer, I'd rather they focus on working out the healer balance first. We have a new slate hitting the table soon so here's me hoping. *Crosses fingers*

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

Wiping the party due to them pushing too much DPS is among the laziest ways of forcing players to stop dealing damage. It's neither fun nor engaging when you literally stand still because you'll wipe the party otherwise. Soft enrages are the better compromise; only wiping the party if they cannot survive gradually increasing damage. Nidhogg and Brute Justice used these mechanics with Ark Morn and J-Wave, respectively. They actually rewarded raw healing and remain some of the very few fights where a White Mage truly shines. Going back to Brute Justice Savage, you'd almost want to bench Scholar because Cure III is amazing.

[Ran1880]

You know what is worse and less desired then whm?xD The raid content is the most against pld.I'm main astro now unless they balance out the tank meta.Whm is still a powerful burst healer.The pld is just a trainwreck from all the jobs currently.The core issue still remains.Give us atleast one active aoe ability besides the tasteless cos.Atleast add some freaking dmg to flash,implement magic reduction to the cds.There are just so much bland CDs like cover + foresight not being magical,tempered will,awareness - they just exist but have almost zero effectiv use except e.g T8,A6 mines/Shiva bow crit back in the days.I got tired oft warrior main and wanted to switch to pld.But heck that's not gonna happen if pld is still an outcast in sb.Feels really bad man.I enjoy astro the most now,so I'm gonna stick to it till any good changes.