Should the Heavensward Leveling dungeons and trials have item level requirements?

[Misutoraru]

You are also missing our point..
during these 3-6 months.

i am not saying no farming
i am saying farming should be able to do during MSQ, or at least MSQ dungeon
this is what i m trying to say, forgive me if my word is confusing, english is not my mother tongue
ok
let me simplify what I mean
let say 51-59, those are not only levelling but also MSQ dungeon, and player can get loot in those dungeon to prepare for higher MSQ
but when the 230 MSQ arrive, none of the previous MSQ dung drop anything to progress to 230
yes those dun drop tomestone of lore and player can get 230 gear and most of the right side, but there are no MSQ dun/tomestone of lore get you a proper main hand and 2nd ring to reach 230 iL average
these gap for MSQ should have been fill, e.g. if Xelphatol is the previous MSQ dun, then they could drop some 230 rather then 225 and they should have some drop of main hand allow player to progress for 230 MSQ
and Raid/Extreme primal should never be a must for MSQ progression
Raid/Extreme primal should be the way for player want a quick way to reach the iL requirement, on the other hand, there should also be a grinding way for slower pace player to reach the MSQ progression
e.g. put 230 ring/main hand in previous dungeon/main hand should have more alternative way of getting like we back in 3.1 time

[Altena]

snip

I am going to keep this brief, and after this I am not going to respond do your reply - because this is a rather large derailment of the thread and I respect the OP enough not to hijack it.

You can easily get a weapon just doing story content. However it requires you to complete the Alex Normal side quests. (Which to me, are considered story).
Grind 1k Tomes of Lore + 4x Midan Gears = an i230 weapon.

You can further upgrade this i230 weapon to i240 just by doing the old 24-man raids (Void Ark + Weeping City) ONCE each.

I cannot agree that you should be able to get all the gear you ever need just by spamming the MSQ dungeons. It's a good thing to force people to do other content other than faceroll easy dungeons - so when a player does actually get to the current patch's end game, they aren't thrown into a bunch of content that is too challenging for them..

You shouldn't be able to get from 3.0 to 3.5 in a day. That is my point. Gating this by iLvl to force new players to play other content other than easy 4-man instances is a positive thing.

Anyway, again.. This is a rather large derailment of the thread and I didn't end up making this post as brief as I had planned.

This thread is about adding an iLvl requirement to levelling dungeons in HW dungeons so that people can't troll around in their level 50 gear in the Vault.

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On topic -

Yesterday I did a run of Dusk Vigil. The tank was in level approprioate gear (most of his slots were i110). Was also popping cooldowns a lot more frequently than most.. However we both noticed how much damage he was tanking (me being the healer) and he actually commented "I don't know why I am taking so much damage in here. I am sorry Healer"..

He was indeed taking quite a lot of damage and I wasn't able to nuke as much as I would like as WHM. After the initial 3x Holy for the stun lock, I was forced to heal him pretty steadily.

My point here is that I can't imagine having to heal an i90 Tank in there - let alone any dungeons higher than it. It's crazy to me that we don't have iLvl requirements for these dungeons..

[Nixxe]

Just because you haven't encountered it doesn't mean it is rare. Like if you had never seen a cricket...does that mean they don't exist or must be very rare? I don't know about you but I hear them all over the place in the summer at night even if I don't see them with my eyes.

People have shared problems with people queuing with improper gear so it exists. The main issue isn't about how often it happens just the fact that it would be simple to stop it from being possible at all and avoid annoyance and wasted time..

You can vote kick people, sure, but in the end they still wasted their time and everyone elses because now you have to sit there waiting for member in progress which sometimes a long time passes and you don't get a replacement and then sometimes whole group just ends up leaving and having to requeue...so...move on with your day? Maybe or maybe you end up wasting 20-40 minutes.

Why put up with that wasted time when it could all be solved by just adjusting the DF system a bit. A lot of DF content already has item level requirements on it so obviously it wouldn't be difficult to do the same for the content that is currently missing item level reqs.

This is a pretty poor analogy that also fails to capture my argument and my reasoning. For our purposes, simply hearing a cricket would constitute encountering one, as we know with quite a bit of certainty what a cricket sounds like and can therefore confidently identify crickets and recognize their presence simply from the sound. However, what hearing a cricket or a few crickets wouldn't tell you, especially if the ones you're listening to are in a cage on the desk of an entomologist, is how common they are out in the wild. Sure, they may seem really common if you consider only the cage filled with crickets, but it's a poor reflection of reality. Furthermore, you're essentially accusing me of making a hasty generalization (somewhat ironic, given that's ultimately what people are doing to argue in favor of this), but my argument is purely statistical in nature: the more runs I do without encountering the problem, the less likely it is that there's some rampant dilemma of this nature. I never denied that it happens at all, merely questioned the frequency with which it occurs. You may dismiss frequency as irrelevant, but nothing could be further from the truth. Virtually all problems and problem solving need to consider the frequency with which a problem occurs to help determine what is an appropriate response. In this case, the proposed solution is to institute some sort of minimum ilvl requirement for dungeons, even though there's already a level requirement and despite the fact that ARR leveling dungeons had no need for such things. In implementing this for what is essentially a rare problem at best, you'll inconvenience people who might slip in under any suggested minimum now without burdening their group, as these dungeons are quite easy and gear isn't particularly important. As I've said several times now, you have the tools you need to handle the problem if you encounter it already. There's absolutely no need for further restrictions simply because you'd rather whine than solve the problem

[Ama_Hamada]

This is a pretty poor analogy that also fails to capture my argument and my reasoning. For our purposes, simply hearing a cricket would constitute encountering one, as we know with quite a bit of certainty what a cricket sounds like and can therefore confidently identify crickets and recognize their presence simply from the sound. However, what hearing a cricket or a few crickets wouldn't tell you, especially if the ones you're listeningto are in a cage on the desk of an entomologist, is how common they are out in the wild. Sure, they may seem really common if you consider only the cage filled with crickets, but it's a poor reflection of reality. Furthermore, you're essentially accusing me of making a hasty generalization (somewhat ironic, given that's ultimately what people are doing to argue in favor of this), but my argument is purely statistical in nature: the more runs I do without encountering the problem, the less likely it is that there's some rampant dilemma of this nature. I never denied that it happens at all, merely questioned the frequency with which it occurs. You may dismiss frequency as irrelevant, but nothing could be further from the truth. Virtually all problems and problem solving need to consider the frequency with which a problem occurs to help determine what is an appropriate response. In this case, the proposed solution is to institute some sort of minimum ilvl requirement for dungeons, even though there's already a level requirement and despite the fact that ARR leveling dungeons had no need for such things. In implementing this for what is essentially a rare problem at best, you'll inconvenience people who might slip in under any suggested minimum now without burdening their group, as these dungeons are quite easy and gear isn't particularly important. As I've said several times now, you have the tools you need to handle the problem if you encounter it already. There's absolutely no need for further restrictions simply because you'd rather whine than solve the problem

SE changed the Queue system to give a penalty if someone misses a queue. I really doubt there was more queue trolling then this issue now. It should be changed, no one should be allowed in 60+ content from gear they found in sashsha while having crafting gear on for other slots.

It does not matter how frequent it happens, it should NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE! Stop enabling people to be lazy and play in inappropriate gear and have more stressful time on healers. Did you ever think just maybe you are simply NOT NOTICING it?

Where does "hand me gear or i am going to play gimp" mentality even come from? This would not last a day in old FFXI. Why does a game need give people EVERYTHING to advance in MSQ?!?!?!?!!? Why can't people put some effort into gear and learning their class????

[Nixxe]

SE changed the Queue system to give a penalty if someone misses a queue. I really doubt there was more queue trolling then this issue now. It should be changed, no one should be allowed in 60+ content from gear they found in sashsha while having crafting gear on for other slots.

It does not matter how frequent it happens, it should NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE!

I doubt that was implemented in response to "queue trolling." More likely it was just meant to keep people from AFKing and forgetting about their queues or from queuing for things they aren't sure they want to do, which is a fairly common problem even with the penalty in place.

Again though, you have the tools to deal with the problem already, so do so.

[Ama_Hamada]

I doubt that was implemented in response to "queue trolling." More likely it was just meant to keep people from AFKing and forgetting about their queues or from queuing for things they aren't sure they want to do, which is a fairly common problem even with the penalty in place.

Again though, you have the tools to deal with the problem already, so do so.

You missed the point of what i was saying, therefor I do not know how to respond to this post.

[Miste]

you'd rather whine

It's so weird...this response of yours...it is like you didn't read what I said past the first paragraph...Oh well...

I guess you also didn't read my other recent post either about Dusk Vigil problems I've encountered.

Did you catch the post on the first page about the Vault?

Would be nice was running the Vault today and the healer was so under geared that if the first boss used his LB move on them it would one shot them and it took 3 runs getting lucky that they didn't get targeted to beat it

^this one? It's interesting, that post, and it happens to be right above your post where you claim adding a minimum item level is unnecessary.

PS. No one asked for really high minimum item levels, just proper minimum item levels where you don't get one shotted by unavoidable damage.

So, can you actually give me a logical reason not to add simple basic minimum item levels so players who are queuing actually have gear strong enough to survive the unavoidable damage in the dungeon? Besides you resorting to calling us whiners. Usually when people start making fun of or throwing labels at people it means they have no argument left.

I doubt that was implemented in response to "queue trolling."

It actually was implemented due to players fishing for In Progress queues. They would queue and withdraw if it popped and wasn't an In Progress duty. They were abusing the system to get end of dungeon rewards with less effort so SE changed it so you cannot withdraw too many times in a row now.

The In Progress pop up used to also tell you what boss the content was on like 0/3 for no bosses killed yet or 2/3 meant only the last boss was left. They changed it to time elapsed also (ex: 32m) so that players couldn't look for content that only had 1 boss left on purpose. Time elapsed doesn't pinpoint where the group is in the content as accurately.

[Ama_Hamada]

So, can you actually give me a logical reason not to add simple basic minimum item levels so players who are queuing actually have gear strong enough to survive the unavoidable damage in the dungeon? Besides you resorting to calling us whiners. Usually when people start making fun of or throwing labels at people it means they have no argument left.

This is how i feel about people saying there should be no requirements or left as is..
They are the ones that liked to be carried.. They do not want to start putting some effort.
Please anyone saying we do not need changes, stop being lazy and stressing your healers because you can't take 10 mins to gear.

This game is so hand you gear I do not know why people complain about it being too hard on new players. I am so sick of seeing rush levelers that get 50+ in 4 days while under geared for the content. IT NEEDS TO STOP!

tbh I do think there is some holes in the analogy but I feel the meaning of the message is valid and I am not even sure If I can properly explain some little disagreements on the details.

[Nixxe]

You missed the point of what i was saying, therefor I do not know how to respond to this post.

I don't think you have much of a point to begin with. Let's look at the edit in your last post. You say that perhaps I'm just not noticing all these undergeared people who are supposedly weighing down the group. OK, I suppose that's fair, but if that's the case, then it would just torpedo your own argument as 1) it's obviously not stopping me from completing the dungeon and 2) isn't stressing me–the healer–out, which according to you is the problem. As I said in your previous thread, I'm probably mediocre at best, so if it's not a problem for mediocre me, why is it a problem for good players, who look down their nose at the riffraff who dare burden them in duty finder? You then go on to rabble rabble lazy rabble rabble effort rabble rabble, which is to say the generic tripe spewed by people who think they're mod's gift to the game, people who in my experience all too often lack even the slightest semblance of awareness as to their own impact on people around them. Why do we even assume these players are lazy? It's a video game. People play it for enjoyment. They may not have the same priorities or skill or whatever and that's OK. No need to denigrate them or assume ill of them just because your random group isn't the super group that you obviously deserve. Random groups are, well, random and as such it would be silly to expect everything to be exactly how you want it to be. If that's what you want, then make your own groups, and you can control exactly who gets in and what they're allowed to do. In the mean time, I'm sorry if someone queues with gear you don't like, but if they can't do their job, that's what the kick function is for. You'll live even if you lose 15 seconds of your day waiting for a replacement.

[Ama_Hamada]

I don't think you have much of a point to begin with. Let's look at the edit in your last post. You say that perhaps I'm just not noticing all these undergeared people who are supposedly weighing down the group. OK, I suppose that's fair, but if that's the case, then it would just torpedo your own argument as 1) it's obviously not stopping me from completing the dungeon and

Also since so many people are stuck on "you cleared and didn't wipe" I will provide more information that I had thought wasn't necessary because I didn't see how someone could possibly defend using a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 content no matter if we "cleared" or not. Whether we cleared or not I have no issue with. My issue is finding this loophole in the DF system where someone can use a weapon extremely inappropriate for the duty.

That is all I am going to say, give me more respect and I will start doing the same. You are enabling people to be lazy for no reason, it is disrespectful to anyone that has to clear a DF with them. There is no holes with what I said.

If that is really your stance then you should be proposing ALL DFS to be able cleared nakkied since putting effort into gearing is too hard and "not fun"