How to get people to tank!

[Khalithar]

Snip

(Side note: I always enjoy reading your posts, just wanted to mention that.)

I was thinking about your thoughts on making mitigation more impactful and doing something about active mitigation and I thought on some other games I've played and how to accomplish that. I don't think WoW's current incarnation of active mitigation is the way to go, what did come to mind for me however were some older abilities in WoW that have since been redesigned and lost any resemblance to their old incarnation. One example is the WoW Paladin's ability Holy Shield, originally it was a buff you had to maintain which drastically increased your block chance for a certain number of blocks or for a certain period of time, whichever happened first, at which point when it ended or ran out, you could usually recast it right away (it had a duration 10 seconds and a cooldown of 8 seconds) and it's overall MP cost was negligible. Now, I'm not suggesting the same incarnation of that ability, but I think adding something in the vein of that on a short cooldown with noticeable enough effect on all tanks could make it more interesting.

What you said stood out to me, particularly this:

Should it still be just as front-loaded as now, where as long as you have all your CDs ready you can take on an army, and when you don't you take on an army of mice?

Because as much as I love this aspect:

Front-loaded mitigation toolkits give us a fairly large capacity range or periodic variance around which to pace our runs, which brings out the feeling of the tank as a dungeon leader, the pace-maker, and necessitating variance in that pace.

And I absolutely 100% agree with you on this, I've lately been thinking that perhaps the difference between when cooldowns are up and when they're not might be a little too much. Note, I'm just saying "might," I'm not completely convinced on it quite yet because I enjoy the front loaded mitigation personally, but when you do use them and you have nothing left it's not a very nice feeling either. Hence why I've started thinking that maybe adding some sort of extra active defenses of some kind might not be a bad idea with their use tied to being in tank stance. But since I like to give more concrete examples...

Paladin- While in Shield Oath, Rage of Halone gives a buff called Halone's Bulwark, decreasing all damage taken by 5-10% for X seconds.

Dark Knight- While in Grit, Dark Arts + Souleater creates a Blood Barrier, absorbing damage equal to the amount of HP healed.

Warrior- While in Defiance, rework Inner Beast so it will only cost 1-2 Wrath but reduce the mitigation some or maybe leave it as is? I'm not sure.

Those are my initial ideas, now obviously I don't know if they would work or be overpowered in the current incarnation of the game, but that's meant to give you more of an idea of what I mean by adding an extra mitigation tool we can use in between longer cooldowns.

[Shurrikhan]

(Side note: I always enjoy reading your posts, just wanted to mention that.)

*blush*

One example is the WoW Paladin's ability Holy Shield, originally it was a buff you had to maintain which drastically increased your block chance for a certain number of blocks or for a certain period of time, whichever happened first, at which point when it ended or ran out, you could usually recast it right away (it had a duration 10 seconds and a cooldown of 8 seconds) and it's overall MP cost was negligible.

I've been thinking about skills like this a lot of late within the domain of active mitigation. Since Legion, though, my favorite example has actually been closer to the Warrior's oGCD toolkit, however (especially back when Focused Rage was still available). Take their Ignore Pain, for instance. To me the ideal design concept for active mitigation should have both choices (not necessarily between other defensives) and application variance. Ignore Pain's interaction with its alternative general resource (Rage) spender, the nuke-buffing Focused Rage, gave both—with or without the (obligatory) Vengeance talent (which traded out choice play for pace play, but also allowed the player to save more rage on one choice than the other through refocusing their priorities while still trying to meet incoming and outgoing windows of play). As effortless as that key was to hit, its timing meant something. It wasn't just a buff you maintain (which is what Holy Shield typically felt like to me).

Just a side-note though, even maintenance buffs like Holy Shield can make that somewhat engaging, especially if they're not oGCDs. Now, that will sound debilitating to some, especially anyone not assuming that the class is (gasp) balanced around that very fact, and is not therefore held back by it. By it being on the GCD, it now has judgment—it needs to be weighed against other choices. Is it about to run out, making some space between this and the next GCD potentially far more painful? How much would be wasted if one were to replace it right now? Depending on how those stats are tracked by which the decision, and how the shield mechanically lasts (by damage or hit count, etc.), it can be either involved or just bothersome. I feel like that's something any MMO ought remember a bit better in regards to some abilities before their initial implementation, rather than having to patch them out later or pretend they're not held back by those small but highly gameplay-affecting details. Some minutia really matter.

I'd like to somewhat avoid concrete examples for now, especially within the combat system as it is now, largely just because I imagine these were meant to illustrative spit-balls, and any counter-suggestions I'd give would be just the same. And because—broken record here—I feel like certain parts of my suggestions will never quite click without some larger underlying revisions to combat (stagger, interception, revisions to RNG mitigation, certain new mitigation mechanics, certain new damage splitting mechanics, etc). For now I'll just leave it at this.

My entirely personal preferences lies with adding as few class or ability-specific gimmicks as possible, while still making them as involved as possible. For instance, even if a stance does something as simple as adding 15% damage, that should be felt through certain benchmarks shifting in the interactions between the attacker and the attacked just because of that damage bonus itself. Even what is simple should be capable of feeling highly involved. Where it does not, that's not a requirement to give the tooltip and extra paragraph's worth of effects—it just means there aren't enough facets of interaction in the first place, universally speaking (or because of some line-up in that interaction). And those are broad mechanics more so than anything unit- or interaction-specific (which would simply be where those marks occur and how the decisions they bring out). Take any actual fighting game for instance, especially where one of the guys has a "Minus Strike" of sorts (like Shugoki's Charge of the Oni in For Honor). It's no longer then just chunking or chipping away at enemy health. Health matters. And so timing matters. Early burst can leave you dead. And yet it's still just health, and one stupidly simple modifier to make it important. That's what I'm looking for in the changes I might recommend. As a tank (or anyone, really) I want things to look forward to beyond just my CD refreshing (something a bit more on the additive side), rather than just thinking about how long I can hold out with my buffs going on CD and their buffs dropping off two by two or so (a more... deductive model, if you will). I want to feel like I'm really "in the fray." We have now slightly through Low Blow and Blood Price, etc. But I want more... a lot more.

One of the things I've suggested to that end before was a revised TP model. That'd be a ridiculously large change, I know, but hear me out for illustrative purposes. By returning TP to a primarily generative resource, building from damage, mitigation, healing and healing dealt and perhaps even damage taken, to differing degrees between different jobs or even stances, there would naturally be an improved output when "in the fray", especially for tanks. Allow TP to then take an effect on or be spent on combo-rushing, thematic tools, extra oGCDs, cleave mechanics, empowering spells, etc., and—in this case the most important bit—defensive abilities, and you have naturally have choices asked of you. Do you accelerate your combos in order to open into your mitigating weaponskills quickly, burn down an enemy (either to undamaging, dead state or stagger him for the time being so he can't do shit to you or anyone else), build defenses, pop utilities... what? Everything has some visible benefit, but you're aiming for the mix that would most produce the outcome you need.

[Ashur]

so - make people tank by.. getting someone else to do it?

[Claire_Pendragon]

I didn't actually think people would take this post as seriously as they have. I did however know no one would like it, and I was hoping for some discussion on tanking theories, but to be honest, I dont feel it turned out how I thought it would, but it actually turned out better. (As I like the current direction of the conversation more)

I mainly thought of this as a hypothetical, and how I'd play the job just to make BRDs into tanks (sometimes BLMs) as a sort of "revenge" for past "bad apples" I ran across.
But then thought about how I'd love to play every DPS with a friend on this job, and try to "tank" as every class, and how much id actually love quite a few jobs (mainly looking at BLM, for its current mitigation options)

But to address a few things;

None of this has anything to do with why people dont tank how bout this if people just shut up , and stopped calling out tanks just because they are tanks then I think wed have more tanks. Its really bad in the 24 mans someone always has to say something always , the problem is , is that when you want to blame a run on someone you go for the tank or the healer, while those same people will level their tanks in potd are something and not even bring it into an instance. The problem with tanking is the community itself not what a tank can or can not do , its if someone is looking for enjoyment in the game its best to just play the dps with no responsibility.

Maybe im mistaken, but the bold part makes me think you misunderstood my post, as I stated that it was NOT the reason. (Which is why it didnt work when SE tried it)
But of course, this "tank" is the "fix" to the problem you mentioned. They would complain to the DPS who is currently tanking, and not to the player who gave them the stance. (Other than to complain they shoulda picked the other DPS)

What are you thinking? not to put you down but that is an insult to people who actually tank. Think about it this way:

Some people play tank roles actually understand the hardship and importance of that role. In most cases tanks have to put up with various factors, such as DPS getting power hungry and pull in advance. Thinking they can do a better job, yes even some vets. get ahead over their heads do to power. Some of us tanks have a golden rules, such as you accidentally get agro and pull we will tank, mistakes happen, you do it on purpose you tank. There is more to tanking that you seem not to be covering. Giving an inexperience tank some type of bonus is a set up to failure in the future. Some people are great at tanking and some just aren't up to the challenge as a main. on the other hand healers, as part of a factor...were to start.

Some healers still don't understand the basic concept of not healing while pulling, or casting regen during a pull. Makes tanking job harder specially on newbies and discourages. Some still don't understand that while we appreciate them DPSing their main job is to heal. Swapping cleric stance and being cautious is understandable, yet even now some DPS still don't know how to help tanks. If your over geared and take agro from tank, temp switch target while it gets re established. It's a simple yet basic rule and DPS still don't understand that. My main is a DPS, I tank second, and heal as needed. So I understand all 3 perspectives. What your proposing is to pretty much make tanking a joke that anyone can do. Not everyone can tank, it takes patience, strategy, and understanding the potential of the group. While your intention is well placed, It would be better to just get a more tank friendly job that perhaps sacrifices dmg for agro generation. A PLD is very easy to maintain hate, at level 60 can help heal, easy combos to follow. Now if you want something easier the only way it could be balance would be to be extra weak, easy agro generation and keep healer on their toes. I doubt however anyone would want to play that.

Insult to tanks? I did say "The DPS players" so if it were an insult, it would be targeting DPS. (Though it can be taken that way, it was more so for dramtic flare, for starting off the topic.)

As for the intricacies of tanking, if anything every player benefits from walking in anothers shoes, to understand how the roles function. The argument shouldnt be "Dont let a person get experience with something they dont have experience with", it should be "Don't force something onto another person who doesnt want that something." (Which my rebuttal is then the Healer who doesnt heal, but goes cleric stance, and expects a group to bring potions. They did sign up for a teamwork based game, not synchronized soloing)

I could go on a very detail process but will keep it simple.

Lets take DRK as an example I love it for speed runs and simple fast and don't really need to stick to 1,2,3 combo, here is what I use besides the obvious buffs active, Grit / Darkside , which by the way if you can't keep up dark side up 100% of the time you may be missing some rotations, I do the following;

Sprint>gather unmend>>>Unleash>>>foresight>>>abissial Drain>>>Blood price>>>Abyssal drain, dark arts>>>dark messenger>>>shadow skin>>> (rotate syphon / soul eater) shadow wall, by then blood prince usually add depending on your skill speed, rotate soul survivor, abyssal drain spam, you can keep dark side constantly up. and can keep rotating to what you prefer carve and split on CD ect. This is a basic and simple. as an example. There are various combinations for war and pld. DRk is a tricky one but once you master it others are all about timing and CD. But hey I only DRK/PLD/ and WAR on occasion. I'm sure there are more creative ones people just need to stop wining, be well geared, and check what other jobs can do. IF your able to understand what cancels what, and what boost what tanking is fun and is all about timing and strategy. This again is a simple example I use various ones depending on types of mobs and what I'm doing. I can go through each tank Job but don't have enough time and at work.

I feel this is a bit cherry picked (while not wrong) as DRK has more AoE options than WAR, and next WAR would have more CD/AoE options than PLD in similar situations.
Id say its situational, and dependant on the tank/scenario.

PLD does rely on its flash spam, and threat combo rotated more than the others, while they get some options to choose from, to keep threat but raise DPS.
Also I think a good example can be on bosses, where you use more than your threat combo easily.

so - make people tank by.. getting someone else to do it?

Yes sir! (Yes, its a joke, but one that when thought about, stirred up interesting ideas/stories)

Alternatively, give DPS more individual responsibility, too.

Might reduce DF population overall, but the ratios would be better balanced...

I always wondered why DPS werent given more responsibility. Even in the MMOs that tried, they eventually removed their support, or made it unnecessary.

I main PLD and I d somewhat agree with this. I wish my defensive mitigation was a lot more interesting than pop a cooldown here and there. I've said for a long time one of the things I miss is aegis boon in 1.23. there was a huge sense of cool when you used that skill properly and laughed off a 4k tank buster with more hp than you had before it hit you...

shelltron is sort of ok. but simply doesn't feel powerfull enough, because you block an attack you still take ~80% of the hit. so it doesn't really feel like its made a huge difference or actually done anything. cool downs are kind of the same. and I see this from the tank and healer perspective. as a healer I often don't even notice if a tank has used a cool down or not. it simply doesn't make that much difference generally speaking. and as a tank they're quite boring to use. 20% less damage for 20 seconds. but visually nothing really changes using it. just the numbers are a bit smaller.

where using shelltron for example it feels a lot more involved even as weak as it is...

personally in some cases using mitigation on other jobs is more satisfying than tanks for example pop a manaward / shadeshift and watch that hit smack you for a big fat zero damage. feels more substantial than rampart or something like that that only reduce it by a percentage%

I sometimes think if they made the defensive aspects of the job more involved and interesting you'd probably have more people playing them... but many of my friends tend to agree that the defensive aspectsare very lacklustre because they don't really make a huge difference most of the time

I thought this way as well, though fights like A12S with tank busters that WILL kill you, even with some CDs up, Surviving with those "weak" CDs, has made me feel stronger now, than prior, when in dungeons it looks unnoticeable if I'm not the healer.

[Sigmar_Heldenhammer]

How to get more people to tank? Even longer dungeon ques.

[Lyth]

Players generally avoid tanking roles because they require responsibility and a thorough knowledge of the fights. Other roles allow you to focus only on the mechanics that directly affect you. So while dps often have a gcd-by-gcd understanding of their own attacks in a fight, and while healers know the timings of the incoming damage, you're the one who needs to understand when and where everything happens in the script so that you can set it up and put it all together. There are more mechanically complex roles, but none with the same knowledge requirement.

You couldn't ask for a higher impact role. But you have to have the motivation to do it. You can't convince someone who isn't already interested in the commitment. Even newer players who aspire to be tank mains sometimes opt to playing dps roles into new fights, in the hopes of bypassing the learning curve and watching how it's done first (this is a really bad idea, as the only way to learn how to tank a fight is by doing it yourself.)

If you think that tank cooldowns don't make a difference, then you are either tanking content that is pitched at a lower difficulty setting, or you're doing it well after gear and echo softens the checks. It means that it's time to tackle something harder, or at least find a group that can do it earlier in the content cycle.

Not really sure what you mean by surviving tankbusters in A12S without any cooldowns. The entire fight is doable with essentially zero Grit uptime, but a cooldown rotation is certainly required. Punishing Heat probably hits for upwards of 40k unmitigated, and Holy Scourge is 4-5 hits of 30k or so (you might just about survive the former with just Grit + Virus, but you probably want at least 30% DR for safety). Unless you're talking about A12N, of course, which was designed to be steamrolled on release day by the average player with i240 gear.

As an aside, but I would like to see physical/magical defense cooldowns (i.e. Sheltron/DM) moved off of job specific actions and on to the reworked role-based cross-class set for tanks to pick and choose on a fight-by-fight basis. I'm still not sold on them, because I feel that short duration cooldowns tend to oversimplify cooldown rotations. But if they're here to stay, I'd rather not see them be the deciding factor in raid comps (the same is true for slashing/piercing debuffs, but I suspect that's the direction that we're going in anyways).

[Risvertasashi]

-snip-

Having been in both roles... I think what they are referring to is that frustration when you're a tank and have a 'bad' healer (like one that dies constantly to mechanics). It can leave you feeling helpless much more often than having a bad tank as a healer does, since a good healer can usually heal through a bad tank.

Not always, though. Raid level tankbusters, and I do mean those ones that will oneshot tanks with no CDs... obviously there's a point where the healer can't do enough even with virus/shields/etc on their own. But that's much rarer; dead healers leading to a party wipe can happen even in much easier/more casual content. All that said, yeah, I think tanks are high impact as is. In fact that's probably partly why it's so intimidating; a tanks mistakes, even small ones, are very visible.

My personal thoughts echo those on the first page; I think it's more impatience among the community and the general intimidation of taking on lead role responsibility that makes a lot of people shy away.

There is no real magic bullet; you just have to try to make some part of it more appealing to try to overcome the stigmas.

[Hasrat]

From a new-ish, non-tank player, I would say the best way to encourage more tanks is to start early. In low-level dungeons, I had a bit of frustration with losing aggro occasionally, maybe usually only one or two. Or struggling to pick up and add, especially any that are a bit far away, either move the whole pack to try to get it, not ideal, or hope your party can at least think to bring it closer, because trying to pick up from range is (or seemed to me) difficult. The more it happened, the more useless I felt as a tank. Which, idk, could as much be on me and poor tanking skills to begin with.

Admittedly, I could just be lazy. Or just not a good fit for the role. But my impression was the learning curve was a bit steep. I've heard some suggest that things get easier later on, once you pick up tank stance, among other tools for holding things together.

My suggestion for encouraging more tanks is to first ask new players about their impressions. Players that start with a tank and stick with it, players that switch to a tank and enjoy it more, players that outright avoid tanking, and players that tried to tank but gave up. There's always going to be a wide variety of opinions, sure, but it would give a much better idea of how to tweak the role to keep interest. It's a bit unbalanced to go off of an end-game player's opinion when the end-game meta is mostly just "MOAR DPS." A new class isn't going to fix anything if it's the role itself that scares players away.

[Rinari]

Or struggling to pick up and add

At low level, you don't have many abilities to work with. The ranged pull attack doesn't generate much enmity and you can't really afford to spam it. Later you can provoke+ranged, but at low levels, your only tool is a hammer, so everything is a nail. So you drag that pack around and hammer the nails with the 1/2 combo. DPS splits, you gotta split the combo. Use your AoE as much as you can afford. For marauder, you can cross-class flash pretty quickly, which helps when you're moving fast through a dungeon and TP is running low from all the overpowers.

You make a good point. Starting early is the way to go, and SE has made a good attempt. Hall of the Novice was a pleasant surprise! They actually teach some very basic steps to tanking. I guess to do better, they'd have to make tank roles stand out to new players, particularly at character creation. Glamorize the 'protector' and give it that heroic rock star feeling. It would certainly help if tanks started with some of their better tanking abilities up front. Grant provoke early (and not through cross-class) and the tank stance.

[bswpayton]

From a new-ish, non-tank player, I would say the best way to encourage more tanks is to start early. In low-level dungeons, I had a bit of frustration

I think one of se biggest mistakes was given pali its tank stance at 40 or perhaps just not giving tanks their tank stance at 15 , those early levels can really make players not want to tank in the future