How to get people to tank!

[Fluffernuff]

If referring to my Original Post, then I think you misunderstood my concept.
The total raid DPS "amount" shouldnt change.
The "New job" would output DPS levels of dmg, while the "DPS with a tank stance" is now lowered in DPS output.

The better counter would be content where people have their tanks stay out of tank stance 90% of the fight, as THAT would be a DPS loss.

wait. hold up. you're actually suggesting having an actual DPS have the tools and survivability to tank? I... cannot support that. It would actually be a loss to take a DRK or PLD at that point, while having that+WAR be the standard.. it'd be like removing 2 tanks from the game, which is never good. It's very counter-productive to remove tanks to make tanking more appealing...

Am I misinterpreting something here? How can you increase the ammount of damage a theoretical tank does without increasing raid damage? I'm not sure the math checks out...

Please tell me I'm missing something here, I don't want to just shoot something down because I misunderstood

[ADVSS]

wait. hold up. you're actually suggesting having an actual DPS have the tools and survivability to tank? I... cannot support that. It would actually be a loss to take a DRK or PLD at that point, while having that+WAR be the standard.. it'd be like removing 2 tanks from the game, which is never good. It's very counter-productive to remove tanks to make tanking more appealing...

Am I misinterpreting something here? How can you increase the ammount of damage a theoretical tank does without increasing raid damage? I'm not sure the math checks out...

Please tell me I'm missing something here, I don't want to just shoot something down because I misunderstood

i think its something like bringing tanks damage up while not increasing dps damage, which basically is never going to happen, because then everyone would roll a tank instead.

[Fluffernuff]

i think its something like bringing tanks damage up while not increasing dps damage, which basically is never going to happen, because then everyone would roll a tank instead.

Skimming over the OP makes it seem like any DPS would be able to fill the Tank roll and give passive buffs to them in order to "try" to actually tank, but not give them any buttons to press to actually tank. bassicly just roiding them up with armor and enmity modifers. Which is exactly what I assumed above.

Though I have to assume something else now. If a DPS is getting no active cooldowns, how are they going to take a hit? a tank buster will still 1-shot them. making this entire idea useless on it's foundation.

If we give the DPS the ability to take a tank buster, we can effectively remove PLD and DRK from the game at that point...


I REALLY wanna be missing something here, because this idea to me is just looking worse....

[Claire_Pendragon]

Skimming over the OP makes it seem like any DPS would be able to fill the Tank roll and give passive buffs to them in order to "try" to actually tank, but not give them any buttons to press to actually tank. bassicly just roiding them up with armor and enmity modifers. Which is exactly what I assumed above.

Though I have to assume something else now. If a DPS is getting no active cooldowns, how are they going to take a hit? a tank buster will still 1-shot them. making this entire idea useless on it's foundation.

If we give the DPS the ability to take a tank buster, we can effectively remove PLD and DRK from the game at that point...


I REALLY wanna be missing something here, because this idea to me is just looking worse....

The Active mitigation tools such as "Rampart" and "Invincible" would be buffs given to the "DPS with tank stance" from the "Tank" who is actually DPSing.

Similar to how a PLD would cover someone else, its this new job covering the pseudo tank.

But this new "DPS with tank stance" would be doing less damage, to do no more dmg than any other tank with tank stance on. (Again, the only issue woudl then be how to keep them alive with CDs, if you want to match tanks who stay out of tank stance, if u set content that way.)

[Fluffernuff]

The Active mitigation tools such as "Rampart" and "Invincible" would be buffs given to the "DPS with tank stance" from the "Tank" who is actually DPSing.

Similar to how a PLD would cover someone else, its this new job covering the pseudo tank.

But this new "DPS with tank stance" would be doing less damage, to do no more dmg than any other tank with tank stance on. (Again, the only issue woudl then be how to keep them alive with CDs, if you want to match tanks who stay out of tank stance, if u set content that way.)

Unfortunately, this is the scenario i brought up before...

The issue is (and why it would more than likely replace PLD and DRK) is that tank stance for mitigation is a safety net. More often than not, once content is "safe" or you are "comfortable" as a tank for that fight, you are often NOT in your tank stance. You gain your enmity lead and try to stay in your DPS stance for as long as possible. those mitigation abilities are saved for tank busters. If "tank stance DPS" lose DPS in tank stance, then they really arent going to play different than tanking now. That DPS would just be stance dancing like any other tank.

Why would you bring a PLD MT when you can bring a tank MNK, drop tank stance, and down bosses quicker? MNK would PROOOBABLY still hit harder than PLD, even with a DPS hit.

on the other end of the spectrum, if rampart isnt even enough for the DPS to take the hit, then it falls apart because your "tank" is constantly dead anyway...

Actually, lets go back to that DPS drop. I'm sure you have that for "balance", but how would that draw in any DPS player? If DPS players prefer doing DPS, then lowering their big numbers and giving them more responsibility isn't going to make them a tank player. Is this an opt-in only? Is a DPS literally forced into it when a tank leaves? How does the game choose?

I feel a bit lost as to what this would help...

[ADVSS]

on the other end of the spectrum, if rampart isnt even enough for the DPS to take the hit, then it falls apart because your "tank" is constantly dead anyway...

Actually, lets go back to that DPS drop. I'm sure you have that for "balance", but how would that draw in any DPS player? If DPS players prefer doing DPS, then lowering their big numbers and giving them more responsibility isn't going to make them a tank player. Is this an opt-in only? Is a DPS literally forced into it when a tank leaves? How does the game choose?

I feel a bit lost as to what this would help...

theres only a couple scenarios where not the entire role/shift would benefit. Im speaking mainly for DRG, but ive actually tanked level 50 dungeons on my monk/smn/sch before when the tank bailed.
1st off a scenario like midas...its been a while but both tanks got jailed by mechanical failure of one of them, and my DRG ended up tanking the boss, to be fair i think drg were intended to be pinch off tanks by their armor and such, anyways, it was still a wipe a bit later on, but i managed to keep the boss on me till the tanks returned, gloating to my astro friend in discord over the power of keen flurry{yeah its not the best cd) and foresight

second for those 3 way garuda ex strategies, where a dps pulls a third add, something like that that WAS an acceptable method to do it, would be slightly beneficial if dps had something, like pulling aggro off a tank by accident or the tank dying, giving time for the healer to correct the accidental situation. But a tank stance? I mean...yeah it would make situational forced offtanking helpful, but yeah. I think i outlined where such an idea would probably most definitely get used, but outside a last resort, i dont think it will be viable. if good dps want to tank, in the absence of a tank, its very possible. Enmity isnt some mysterious thing, you just pump out all your buffs and aoes to hold em all, the onus is on the healer who has to deal with a half defense tank with no dedicated cooldowns for mitigation. Im not even sure how beneficial armor points are in defense, as my i260 drk still gets critted by star marmots outside of uldah for 2 dmg. just like my level 5 gladiator did with ilevel 3

[Instrumentality]

TL;DR You can't get people to tank if they don't find tanking inherently interesting.

[darzok]

There is NO way to fix this problem with out making every class a tank.

Rewards do not work you just end up with a load of bad tanks for a short time to gear there DPS classes.

Simplifying tanking you just end up for a short time with a load of bad tanks and would most likely mean all content has to be made much easier. It would all so annoy many tanks who enjoy how tanks work now most likely ending up with lower tank numbers after a month or so.

New tank classes do not work you just end up with a load of bad tanks trying the new class only to vanish a week or two later. The only players who stay are mostly the main tank players to start with.(Drk incase you forgot)

The problem is player based people expect tanks to know EVERY fight and take the blame for any error even if its out of his/her control. Its highly annoying to deal with bad players who just rage at you even if its there own dam fault you become the target.

I did machi the other day 1 wipe due to people not avoiding aoes me and the other 2 tanks was to blame and got insulted quite abit for it since we are to blame for random aoe's and people not moving to avoid them.

[Aamalthea]

There is NO way to fix this problem with out making every class a tank.
The problem is player based people expect tanks to know EVERY fight and take the blame for any error even if its out of his/her control. Its highly annoying to deal with bad players who just rage at you even if its there own dam fault you become the target.

Going to have to agree with this. I'm one of those that wants to tank, but doesn't because of anxiety. I did for a while back before HW but so many times I got chewed out for being new in a dungeon. I would love to do it now (I play as tanks in potd and enjoy it) but I'd have to learn what I'm doing in the dungeons. Not that many people have the patience to just let you learn or give you good advice. If you don't know what you're doing from day 1 and do it absolutely perfectly at all times, you're bad. I don't think there's anything SE can do about that, it's like that in lots of MMOs.

[ADVSS]

Going to have to agree with this. I'm one of those that wants to tank, but doesn't because of anxiety. I did for a while back before HW but so many times I got chewed out for being new in a dungeon. I would love to do it now (I play as tanks in potd and enjoy it) but I'd have to learn what I'm doing in the dungeons. Not that many people have the patience to just let you learn or give you good advice. If you don't know what you're doing from day 1 and do it absolutely perfectly at all times, you're bad. I don't think there's anything SE can do about that, it's like that in lots of MMOs.

Honestly you should go with it. potd does offer a lot more tanking critical thinking than many of the existing hard modes, with potd, like original stone vigil, youre aware of scouts/wanderers, potential traps of many spawns, and being able to identify or necessitate a quick route with minimal kills if the objective is time based. Boom. You will be fine, as nothing learned as a tank was ever explained in game besides the dungeons like original stone vigil