Thread: Cutting number of abilities in 4.0

Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Out of everything that could be removed, why would you want to get rid of those?

DoT effects are an easy way to increase someone's dps without having to actually buff how hard their other abilities hit. However, they aren't really very exciting and (in my opinion) are no different than the "maintenance" buffs like straight shot, heavy thrust, maim, etc. I wouldn't mind not having to hit Scourge every 24~ seconds on my drk, Goring Blade isn't so bad, it gives Paladin a nice steady rotation to work with (Goring, RAx2, Goring, RAx2, repeat), most Warriors don't even use Fracture nowadays, iirc Fracture is actually a dps loss unless they have Berserk up.

As for what I want cut for the tanks? I would say any highly situational ability can be cut and it wouldn't be a big loss.

Now for the breakdown for the specific things I want removed:

Paladin
1. Tempered Will- Removed
2. Convalescence- Becomes a passive for all tanks.
3. Awareness- Becomes a passive for all tanks.
4. Bulwark- Becomes a passive for Pld.

Dark Knight
1. Scourge- Removed, DoT effect worked in to it's combos somewhere, maybe Power Slash?
2. Dark Dance- Parry effect becomes a passive for Drk.
3. Blood Price- Becomes a passive for Drk.
4. Blood Weapon- Effect folded in to Darkside.

Warrior
1. Maim- Becomes a passive, combo is reworked in to Heavy Swing -> Storm's Path -> Storm's Eye
2. Foresight- Becomes a passive.
3. Inner Beast/Fell Cleave- Becomes a single button that changes depending on your stance.
4. Steel Cyclone/Decimate- Becomes a single button that changes depending on your stance.
5. Unchained- I kind of like the idea of folding the effect in to Berserk.
6. Fracture- Removed.
7. Defiance- Additional healing effect removed since Conv. is a passive.

Edit: One thing I want to add about Awareness, in WoW and a few other MMO's, all tanks get a passive ability that makes them immune to critical hits from enemies excepting in the case of an enemy using an ability that guarantees a critical hit. I don't see why it should be different for the sake of being different in FFXIV.

Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Snip

Pld become useless? Definitely not. I never stated what I would want to see added to them to make their DPS just as good as the two other tanks because I honestly have no idea what to give Pld to make it's dps better at this point outside of raw potency boosts. Also your post is a bit misleading with the ideas I posted.

War and Drk damage is tuned assuming you have Darkside and Maim up at all times, turning Maim in to a passive leaves Warrior's dps basically the same, it's just a small quality of life change. Putting Stormx2 and adjusting the potencies (you're right, the potency would be too high but that can always be changed) accordingly would let them apply their debuffs in a row while keeping their damage the same, it's once again a QoL change. As far as tying unchained in to Berserk, like I said, I kind of like the idea, but I'm not sold on it.

As far as Drk goes, putting scourge on Power Slash was just the first idea that came to mind and once again, it wouldn't be a buff. It would still be the same dps since you would only use the combo every 24~ seconds to maintain the DoT effect. Saying the permanent +15% damage is a buff is also misleading, you should be keeping Darkside up 100% of the time you're in combat, Drk should ALWAYS have the +15% damage. That being said, Darkside needed something to make it more interesting, folding Blood Weapon in to it is the best bet in my opinion.

I've also been an advocate for ditching the tank stances entirely for Drk/Pld and making stances more meaningful for warrior than they are now since I rarely ever see warriors using Defiance anyway and spending 99% of their time in Deliverance, but I digress. I definitely would want to see pld buffed up to have it's dps increased, but for the life of me I don't know what. Besides the question was what abilities we want to see removed, not what buffs or new abilities we want to see. For all we know if they did make those changes they could give Pld some crazy dps moves to bring it up to par, I have no idea.

As far resources go, good drk's manage their mp fine, I only ever see warrior's fell cleave all over the place with the occasional Decimate for AoE, and Pld has no resources to manage anyway. I don't really see what's lost in the process. As far as defensive cooldowns go, Drk still has to manage Dark Mind, Shadow Skin, Living Dead, and Shadow Wall, Warrior still has to know when to use Raw Intuition, Equilibrium, Thrill of Battle, Holmgang, and Vengeance, and Paladin still has to manage Rampart, Sentinel, and Hallowed Ground. I really don't think losing Awareness, Foresight, and Convalescence is that big a loss.

Originally Posted by Khalithar

Saying the permanent +15% damage is a buff is also misleading, you should be keeping Darkside up 100% of the time you're in combat, Drk should ALWAYS have the +15% damage. That being said, Darkside needed something to make it more interesting, folding Blood Weapon in to it is the best bet in my opinion.

I'm not saying that the 15% is a buff to Darkside, I'm saying that that, along with everything else on the Darkside buff, is rather excessive. Even if you made it a true stance and thus mutually exclusive with Grit that all combined is still far above anything Sword Oath or Deliverance provides.

As far resources go, good drk's manage their mp fine,

And the changes you suggest get rid of almost all of that management effort when every hit you make and take forever feed you MP.

I really don't think losing Awareness, Foresight, and Convalescence is that big a loss.

It would require considerable rebalancing of all existing content. Everything will have to hit harder baseline because there'd be no threat otherwise due to easier healing and no spikes beyond tank busters. Situations where crits are normally guaranteed are prevented by Awareness, so either the passive doesn't take priority and thus loses it's primary purpose or it utterly trivializes the only periods where crits are a threat.
The loss of these abilities also messes with enmity generation to an extent. As I recall every buff you use generates about 210 potency worth of enmity to everything in combat. 14/19.25 a second (those plus BP, BW, DD) lost to Dark Knight, 6.42 a second (those and Bulwark) for Paladin, 5.8 a second for Warrior. This is comparable to, or worse than, taking away Salted Earth (11.5 per second), Circle of Scorn's dot (6 per second), or requiring a stack of 10 Abandon (and permitting such a stack) to use Decimate (variable but roughly 1.3, 2.6 with the two Storms in a combo idea, per second on weaponskill combos alone). Unless I'm screwing my math up somewhere.

Originally Posted by Khalithar

1. DoT effects are an easy way to increase someone's dps without having to actually buff how hard their other abilities hit. However, they aren't really very exciting and (in my opinion) are no different than the "maintenance" buffs like straight shot, heavy thrust, maim, etc. I wouldn't mind not having to hit Scourge every 24~ seconds on my drk, Goring Blade isn't so bad, it gives Paladin a nice steady rotation to work with (Goring, RAx2, Goring, RAx2, repeat), most Warriors don't even use Fracture nowadays, iirc Fracture is actually a dps loss unless they have Berserk up.

2. <snipped: ability trim suggestions>

1. They are 100% maintenance buffs, but they also have a larger range of output. Moving dps output from ST filler to ST DoTs increases "cleave", for one thing, and whereas most buffs are either short enough or strong enough never to forgo them, even if the fight is nearly over, a DoT will often be forgone due to an enemy dying to quickly. It's not an especially interesting mechanic by any means, but it's, sadly, one of the more interesting practical gameplay concepts we have, be that as a tank or anyone else. The longish durations also highlight windows of stance dancing (Fracture less so than Scourge or Goring Blade, as it's oddly weak).

I'd say we're better off with than without, but that's not at all to say that just about anything in that mix could be improved.

2. I have to say I'd be far more annoyed by the removal of these CDs by turning them into passives, however. I enjoy thinking about when to use a particular ability. While I'd enjoy additional interplay, opportunity cost, and so forth, I'd fine nothing entertaining about simply making tanks more passively overpowered rather than having to timely deploy our defensives.

:: Awareness is probably an ability rather than a tank-passive not because XIV is trying to be "different" but because there are so many abilities and adds/bosses that, under a given buff or phase, will auto-crit, making it a hard-counter ability. Tanks could gain an ability that makes them immune to trash mob critical hits, but then Awareness would feel a waste. I personally find the CD fine as it is, and, if anything, want there to be more crits taken. If it ends up a cross-class skill, the CD could then also be reduced to 90 seconds.