Charging for runs.

[Belhi]

If there is a market people will make gil from it. If there isn't they won't. I don't think charging gil to punish dps is a good idea. The queues themselves are going to make things unpleasant enough without being petty about it. However on the flipside if a healer or tank is willing to run dps in long queues through dungeons they wouldn't otherwise be queuing for and charging a fee that seems fine to me. Tanking and healing isn't a public service. We all play this game for fun.

A MCH or BRD main may not like the idea of playing a melee or caster DPS. So this player would get no satisfaction from SAM or RedMage (and they would need to suffer through the DPS queues). Like I said, dps is split into different categories that differ greatly from each other. Don't assume that every DPS player likes all the different styles of DPS.

The same could be said for healers. SCH and WHM play drastically different. You have never had an issue with the balance between SCH and WHM because they fill drastically different roles. The whole balance thing only became an issue when you had AST trying to compete with both.

[Aerowaffle]

The same could be said for healers. SCH and WHM play drastically different. You have never had an issue with the balance between SCH and WHM because they fill drastically different roles. The whole balance thing only became an issue when you had AST trying to compete with both.

I disagree to some extent. The differences between the healing classes are not to the same degree as the differences between the sub categories of DPS.

All healers need to have large expensive heals, a cleanse, efficient heals, AOE heals, and "oh shit" large instant heals that have some sort of CD. All heal classes have the same sort of tactic, albeit with different spice on top.

If everyone has taken damage, you spam your AOE heals. If the damage is noticeable but not urgent, you use your variety of efficient heal. If someone has taken some serious damage and needs to be brought to max asap, "oh shit" heals. Etc.

While DPS, the only thing they need to have the same is that they deal single-target damage and multi-target damage in some way shape or form. Everything else can be different.

A MNK and a BLM, for example, play completely different from each other. MNK is forced to follow a 1->2->3->1 rotation constantly while wiggling between the enemy's flank and back. BLM wants to stay still as long as possible at a range so that they can get more casts in while they play a metronome style of fire/ice depending on their mana.

[Belhi]

I disagree to some extent. The differences between the healing classes are not to the same degree as the differences between the sub categories of DPS.

All healers need to have large expensive heals, a cleanse, efficient heals, AOE heals, and "oh shit" large instant heals that have some sort of CD. All heal classes have the same sort of tactic, albeit with different spice on top.

If everyone has taken damage, you spam your AOE heals. If the damage is noticeable but not urgent, you use your variety of efficient heal. If someone has taken some serious damage and needs to be brought to max asap, "oh shit" heals. Etc.

While DPS, the only thing they need to have the same is that they deal single-target damage and multi-target damage in some way shape or form. Everything else can be different.

A MNK and a BLM, for example, play completely different from each other. MNK is forced to follow a 1->2->3->1 rotation constantly while wiggling between the enemy's flank and back. BLM wants to stay still as long as possible at a range so that they can get more casts in while they play a metronome style of fire/ice depending on their mana.

Are you seriously arguing that Mitigation healing and Throughput healing are more similar than how a BRD and a BLM play? SCH is about keeping the group from taking damage and WHM is about bringing heal back up. As I said before, you never see an issue with SCH and WHM competing with each other for a healing spot because if you have a Throughput healer or a Mitigation healer you don't want another one in the Full party. There is a reason people aren't too keen when they get 2 SCHs in a full party.

[Aerowaffle]

Are you seriously arguing that Mitigation healing and Throughput healing are more similar than how a BRD and a BLM play? SCH is about keeping the group from taking damage and WHM is about bringing heal back up. As I said before, you never see an issue with SCH and WHM competing with each other for a healing spot because if you have a Throughput healer or a Mitigation healer you don't want another one in the Full party. There is a reason people aren't too keen when they get 2 SCHs in a full party.

And I am talking about styles of play, not the result that occurs.

If we're talking about the result, most DPS is the same, since they all deal damage (some more AOE oriented than others).

I'm talking about the actions of the player.

End result difference between throughput healing and shield healing? Tons. Which is why groups want one of each. But what is the actual play-style difference between giving a large heal after big damage and giving a shield heal before big damage? About a second of delay.

[Belhi]

And I am talking about styles of play, not the result that occurs.

If we're talking about the result, most DPS is the same, since they all deal damage (some more AOE oriented than others).

I'm talking about the actions of the player.

End result difference between throughput healing and shield healing? Tons. Which is why groups want one of each. But what is the actual play-style difference between giving a large heal after big damage and giving a shield heal before big damage? About a second of delay.

I am going to respectfully disagree with you on that part. You could argue that range and melee are different but caster and range really aren't particularly now BRDs and MCH have cast times. You use you AoEs when you need to AoE, single target when you need to single target, use procs when you have the chance and apart from that try to maintain your rotation.

If healing was all the same then AST wouldn't be the balance mess that it is.

[ADVSS]

ill pay no more than 30k a run. If its too little, ill use DF.

[XSamsaraLotusX]

If the wait time is 30m in the longest pont then ok. If it 1h+ then pay more like 100k or wait.
Its nothing personal just a bisnes.

[Lewtskie]

I am going to respectfully disagree with you on that part. You could argue that range and melee are different but caster and range really aren't particularly now BRDs and MCH have cast times. You use you AoEs when you need to AoE, single target when you need to single target, use procs when you have the chance and apart from that try to maintain your rotation.

If healing was all the same then AST wouldn't be the balance mess that it is.

Except the differences between healers mechanically is much more narrow than DPS.

A WHM has a specific action for a large heal, small heal, aoe heal. Sch much the same, while supplementing with their fairies actions. But mechanically you have a specific ability for these actions.

A BRD to perform properly and a BLM to perform properly are very mechanically different. They have very different ways of reaching the end result of taking down a large group of enemies or a single one.

Similarities of DPS will expand among Stat-types instead of distance of engagement. In a sense DRG(STR) and BLM(INT) aren't that different that their base mechanics being long combo chains, but beyond that they become much different. The same as MCH(DEX) and SMN(INT) both utilize an ammo mechanic.resource management, then branch out.

[Belhi]

Except the differences between healers mechanically is much more narrow than DPS.

A WHM has a specific action for a large heal, small heal, aoe heal. Sch much the same, while supplementing with their fairies actions. But mechanically you have a specific ability for these actions.

A BRD to perform properly and a BLM to perform properly are very mechanically different. They have very different ways of reaching the end result of taking down a large group of enemies or a single one.

Similarities of DPS will expand among Stat-types instead of distance of engagement. In a sense DRG(STR) and BLM(INT) aren't that different that their base mechanics being long combo chains, but beyond that they become much different. The same as MCH(DEX) and SMN(INT) both utilize an ammo mechanic.resource management, then branch out.

If healers are so similar then why have they been such a headache to balance for SE? They have been trying all expansion and in the end they just dealt with it by overbuffing AST. Your saying a class that specialises in mitigation, who's emergency heals work of a charge mechanic and who manages a pet is the same as one that just spams direct heals?

Your role in a group as a mitigation healer is notably different to main healing. You focus on minimizing burst damage while correcting with emergency heals and spot heals while trying to contribute to dps. How you do a fight is functionally quite different.

BRD AoE and BLM AoE aren't that different. Fundamentally both are spamming AoE attacks while maintaining a buff.

My point is if you want to start to split roles into categories you will find that it can apply to healing and tanking to due to how the meta works. I am not arguing that the dps getting two roles is unfair. Its disappointing but you can justify the reasoning to the end of time and it wont stop it being disappointing. Its just that with the meta, these justifications seem pretty hollow.

I am more annoyed that people seem to be trying to justify it than I am disappointed with the lack of a tank and healer. I also found Yoshi P's reassurance annoying cause frankly it also sounds pretty lame. Getting balanced Jobs isn't something we should be thankful for. Its something we should be expecting. Were they not going to balance the Jobs properly if we did get a new tank or healer? Same with the 'breathing new life into the roles'. Everyone is getting that. That's not something Tanks and Healers should be extra thankful for.

Now maybe he meant they have major overhauls to how the Tanking and Healer meta work but I am not going to believe that till I see it. Their design choices with Tanking and Healing were pretty hit and miss in HW and that doesn't show me they have learned how to deal with the meta design. If in two months they bring out some amazing overhaul and if so, fantastic. But I don't think that is what they have actually promised and until then I am going to remain sceptical.

Tanks and Healers are perfectly entitled to be disappointed. Currently the new Jobs are about half of what has been offered for us to get hyped about and for people not interested in dps they are both duds. Let them be disappointed and stop trying to justify the decision.

All this is kind of beside the point. How tanks and healers feel about it won't change the length of the queues. Tanks and healers will queue up for as many dungeons as they feel like doing and that is just the reality. Tanks and healers don't get a new job and DF queues for dps queuing without a tank or healer will be long.

And the demand will inspire tanks and healers looking for ways to make gil offer up their services. Some might do it out of spite but most I think will be doing it because the opportunity exists.