[DEV Question] Why is this allowed?

[JunseiKei]

And I still think that your potential with an i110 head, hands, waist and feet and other gear i270 including the weapon should not be miles above having an i110 weapon and all other gear i270.

Yet, I'm still convinced that, if you join a party with someone having a really low body piece, you wouldn't even notice, since the DPS would be fairly acceptable for the fight. Especially on A9 which is pretty low on party-wide damage.

You would notice when the DPS use Blood for Blood and get one shot since body gear also dictates how much HP you have as well as your defensive stats. Maybe not on A9, unless Faust cleaved them, which would probably be more on the OT facing it the wrong way. Probably. However, 10, 11 and 12 get target specific mechanics that would kill them off, especially if it's more than one piece of gear. The harder pieces to notice would be accessories; they don't provide HP nor any real amount of defense.

The weapon will always be miles ahead of the others since, as I've said, it's what SE decided to use as a stat capper. Even if it were another piece, say an accessory, if it somehow decided where the stats would start meeting soft and hard caps, that would be the most important thing to upgrade. The weapon is really the only real hard cap I see (though I could debate critical RATE and just RATE being more toward hard capped than soft). Everything else has a lot of soft capping (AKA diminishing returns).

[enthauptet]

Everyone missing the real important issue...check out those stats lol


Anyway for duty finder content LVL 60 content should require LVL 60 gear. If you have LVL 50 gear equipped it should bar you from queue and commence (like if you switch job in queue you have to switch back). If you do full party it wouldn't have that requirement.

I have current i270 bis on my monk right now and figured I could shed some light on how important the weapon is. Through some SSS dummy work using i110 Glanzfaust and i110 Gloam Tabard I found that I did 1600 dps with the weapon and 2400 dps with the chest piece. You can see how big a difference the weapon makes.

[Reynhart]

Mmh... not sure if I like that tbh - while I do see the problem here with questlines like the relic and weapons being the ultimate reward from raids I can understand that they're giving the most boost when it comes to damage - just like armor gives you more HP/protection for incoming damage. The weapon is what deals damage, the rest of the gear is what protects you - seems pretty intutive to me...

Weapons could give something else that pure damage. That's pretty much what people requested for the Relics since 2.0. And it would introduce an interesting customization as you wouldn't automatically chose the highest ilvl weapon.
And, frankly, no one really cares about "protection". BiS is determined by what gives you the most DPS.

And its also a bit more "interesting" - we dont have that many choices in the game after all, but if every piece of gear basically does the same those options get even lowered when it doesnt matter if you get a new weapon or a new bodypiece.

That's still not a choice. Like I said above, in 7 weeks, you can earn 3150 capped tomestones. However you spend them, if you want to increase your DPS the most, you buy the weapon.

Had a tank in DV recently, best accessory was a level 39 earring, everything else was way below.

lvl 39 as best accessories is really pushing the undergear to the limit.

Through some SSS dummy work using i110 Glanzfaust and i110 Gloam Tabard I found that I did 1600 dps with the weapon and 2400 dps with the chest piece.

That's my point, the gap is too much considering the cost of both those items.

[Nestama]

It's still a better idea to just make it so that weapons meet the minimal ilvl of the Duty :T
Or at least be level 60 so we don't get people with Level 50 or less weapons in the Duty.

[Shurrikhan]

[Dev Answer] Because that's how average numbers work.

That is how an average of a metric of varying real value works. They easily could, however, base the metric on consistent real value, which would weigh a weapon differently from, say, a ring.

That's my point, the gap is too much considering the cost of both those items.

Agreed. Or, alternatively, we should either be paying a bit more for weapons or a bit less for gear. In either case, we should be paying a roughly equal per-stat cost, just as ilvl should be stat-based. The only determiner after that should be how we weigh Defense.

[Miste]

Maybe you should have read the next sentence...

Maybe you should have read the sentence you wrote which I quoted....

If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state.

^You, in plain readable English, said that if the game let the BLM enter then "it's not a problem".

Which was the reason for my last response to you.

Yes you said this after....

Building on that, the discussion is how the system could be tweaked to ensure that "Required ilvl" is a proper measurement.

But how does this^ sentence somehow remove or backtrack the opinion you clearly wrote in your first paragraph that "it's not a problem"? Your second paragraph doesn't somehow invalidate the first paragraph you wrote....like you are really confusing me.

Building on that? No...that isn't what the thread is about. No matter if he queued using it or changed it inside it is still a problem because no matter how he did it level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 content is massively inappropriate and the game shouldn't have let him queue with it or change to it. It's fine about your idea to make the weapon less significant, while I might not agree with that approach I have no issue with your ideas/opinions on that.

My issue was you claiming "if the game lets you enter it's not a problem". Which is why I posted that example in my last post, which you didn't comment on for some reason, about Queueing as a tank for level 60 dungeons with full crafting gear and healing accessories on.



This is a tank queueing for a dungeon wearing all crafting gear and healing accessories and level 50 weapon going into level 60 content. The game let me do it. So I guess it isn't a problem?

Again, as soon as you say that it isn't a problem because the game let them queue then what I just did in that screenshot is 100% no problem at all. That's why you just cannot support that kind of reasoning because in the end you just turn into a hypocrite. Anyone who plays this game knows that screenshot is a serious problem. (btw I have less VIT than a level 40 something tank)

Now my example doesn't have much to do with the topic because honestly I've never seen someone do what I just tried to do (I really hope no one would be dense enough to do it either; the potential is there it is just unlikely), but using "the game let them enter" as a reason why it is no problem that the BLM was there in that state... that's where it becomes ridiculous. You just can't accept that and that is what my example is showing.

Yes the game let him queue, or the game let him change to that weapon in the instance, but weapon by itself is too important which is why I advocate a simple change to the DF system where it checks your weapon when you try to queue and inside the instance will bar you from changing to a massively inappropriate weapon also.

Just because the game lets you queue doesn't mean there are no flaws with the DF system. It obviously isn't perfect looking at the screenshot I just took. If it was perfect it wouldn't let someone queue in a state where they cannot do their job for the content and extremely hard (if not completely impossible) for you to clear the content.

Note: I hit withdraw, not going into a dungeon like that :/

You believe if the game let him enter then there is no problem and that there is only a problem if he changes gear inside the instance, but in the end you are just ignoring the fact that the reason for this thread is the fact that he could actually queue with that weapon (I checked on my BLM and equipping an i110 weapon only brought me down to i240), or he could switch to it inside the duty, and BOTH scenarios are a problem.

[Sylvain]

And this right here is the reason this behavior isn't discouraged enough. "Its ok because we cleared it"

Perhaps going afk shouldn't be punished too if people can still kill the boss.

[Reynhart]

Which is why I posted that example in my last post, which you didn't comment on for some reason, about Queueing as a tank for level 60 dungeons with full crafting gear and healing accessories on.

I didn't comment on that because I said, pages ago, that gear should be more rescrited towards job that can wear it.

but in the end you are just ignoring the fact that the reason for this thread is the fact that he could actually queue with that weapon (I checked on my BLM and equipping an i110 weapon only brought me down to i240), or he could switch to it inside the duty, and BOTH scenarios are a problem.

I wouldn't suggest changes if there wasn't a problem.

[B]Just because the game lets you queue doesn't mean there are no flaws with the DF system.

That's your opinion, mine is that there is a flaw in gear weighting.

[Miste]

I didn't comment on that because I said, pages ago, that gear should be more rescrited towards job that can wear it.

Restricting gear has a negative aspect with it since it removes certain glamour options for people; while simply fixing the DF so that it cannot be misused doesn't remove glamour options. So, sorry this isn't the better option over just fixing the DF instead.

That's your opinion, mine is that there is a flaw in gear weighting.

It's not really just an opinion after showing factual evidence that it is flawed. Are you really still denying it?

I can't believe you can look at that screenshot and not see it as a flaw. If someone did queue like that they would be unable to even complete the instance no matter what group they got. Yes it is unlikely that anyone would seriously do that, but the potential is still there, which makes the system definitely not perfect. Not perfect = it has flaws; which means there is room for improvement.

The example I put forth with the tank screenshot has nothing to do with gear weighting. Even if they altered the weight of the gear the DF system would still let me queue with that i150 gear. I was queuing for an i145 dungeon while almost all my gear slots were between i140-i150 (in case you don't understand what I mean it means ALL my gear was actually within acceptable proper item level for the content...it was just the wrong gear that had no tank stats on any of it).

So even if the ilevel weights changed I would still be able to queue like that due to the flaws in the DF system right now that it does not check that your main stat/weapon is proper. This is a flaw since people cannot do their job in the content and the game lets them queue and doesn't tell them it is improper when they do things like this BLM did or what my tank in the screenshot did. I just hopefully doubt someone would equip all that improper gear while weapon is just one piece so way more often I have seen people knowingly or unknowingly abuse the system using very improper ones.

While I agree with you that gear weighting can be seen as flawed as well (since the item level system weighs all pieces equally when they actually aren't), you cannot say the gear weighting is flawed without acknowledging the DF system is flawed as well in this particular case.

The flaw in the ilevel weights OR the DF system makes it so people can use very improper weapons and still queue but they cannot do their job in the content. While the DF alone also lets people queue with absolutely no gear on that increases their main job's stats which also makes it so people cannot do their job in the content.

Both are the same nature of flaw. So you supporting one while denying the other makes zero sense. Fixing the DF would fix both these issues listed while fixing the weights only fixes one of them. While the weapon issue is the main one because the other I have never seen someone do yet it still would be beneficial for SE to fix both.

I choose to fix the DF flaw over the weight flaw and I understand you choose to fix the weight flaw...but you deny the DF flaw even exists which really makes no sense at this point and is the main reason for my recent responses to you. You really need to look closely at what I have been saying to you.

Basically if we fix the weighting we can possibly fix the weapon issue this is true (I feel this method will cause more problems than it helps since it is directly connected to too many aspects of the game, so I still don't agree), but if we fix the DF, just adding a few more checks, not only do we fix the weapon problem but maybe SE will fix the other issue of the tank example I gave to end this improper gear problem altogether and we also won't lose any glamour over it since the game won't let people queue with crafting gear and improper accessories anymore even if they can wear it.

Your opinion to fix the weighting is fine, but if you don't understand by now what I mean about denying the DF system problems then I am done bothering. Sorry, but I am just going to end up repeating myself.

[Felis]

like it says in game but this is not a true average on how the different slots are weighted differently in stat giving and improvements. Now if we take my suggested weights earlier we get:

weapon 255 x10 = 2550
head 260 x3 = 780
body 260 x5 = 1300
hands 260 x 3 = 780
belt 270 x 1 = 270
legs 270 x 5 = 1350
feet 260 x 3 = 780
earring 270 x 1 = 270
neck 260 x 1 = 260
brace 270 x 1 = 270
ring 260 x 1 = 260
ring 270 x 1 = 270

9140 / 35 = 261

because of my weapon it pulled my average down then what the game says, and with good reason to do so. This will prevent all the complaints presented in this thread, like padding the right to pass an ilevel check with wrong stats.

You are not asking for a true ilevel average, but for a main stat average