[DEV Question] Why is this allowed?

[Vidu]

If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state.

Seems to me you're the one missing the problem here - unless we want to assume that having a weapon this far below the requirements for the duty is "working as intended", the system is obviously flawed, because this shouldnt happen (and I cant imagine that the devs really had this sort of thing in mind when creating the average ilvl requirement...).
Asking for this to change is totally legit - we got the minimum ilvl because it was pointed out that people were entering dungeons without proper gear. This system doesnt has to be fixed - just because the game allows for it right now doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed how to change it to prevent such "abuse" (you cant be fine with this sort of gear in this sort of content).

So saying "But the game says its fine!" is a pretty lame answer, specially when the whole thread was about "This shouldnt be fine, please change the system somehow". Just because something is okay/"legal" at somepoint doesnt mean it cant or shouldnt change...

[Reynhart]

No....I've basically shown that it is a problem with that in progress run with the BLM in my original post and also the testing I did.

Maybe you should have read the next sentence...

Building on that, the discussion is how the system could be tweaked to ensure that "Required ilvl" is a proper measurement.

Seems to me you're the one missing the problem here - unless we want to assume that having a weapon this far below the requirements for the duty is "working as intended", the system is obviously flawed, because this shouldnt happen

If the same player came with i110 head, hands, and feet, no one would even have noticed...

This system doesnt has to be fixed - just because the game allows for it right now doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed how to change it to prevent such "abuse" (you cant be fine with this sort of gear in this sort of content).

Hmm, yeah...that's what we do here...

People are only defending this coz its a dps, if it was any other role it wouldn't be tolerated for a second.

Let me borrow your sentence, please. People are only bitching about this coz it's a weapon, if it was any other piece, it wouldn't matter at all.

[Vidu]

If the same player came with i110 head, hands, and feet, no one would even have noticed...
Let me borrow your sentence, please. People are only bitching about this coz it's a weapon, if it was any other piece, it wouldn't matter at all.

Yeah, but thats the issue here: ONE piece of gear making a huge difference (specially compared to accessories).
So there are basically three options:
1) Average ilvl is calculated based on the "weight" the piece is contirbuting - aka weapon more than the bodypiece and the bodypiece more than your earrings
2) We seperate ilvl and weapon-ilvl
3) The contribution of the weapon to the overall damage gets lowered (atm it seems that it makes up about half of the damage instead of the 1/13 or 2/13 that it is when calculating the average ilvl)

The issue is simply: not having appropriate gear always sucks, but when it comes to the weapon is especially bad because of the system that is in place. So this seems to be a problem that should be adressed - again, just because the game allows someone with an ilvl110 weapon to enter Alexander at the moment, doesnt mean that that is okay (and quite frankly I cant imagine that thats "working as intended") and doesnt has to change.

And I still think that your potential with an i110 head, hands, waist and feet and other gear i270 including the weapon should not be miles above having an i110 weapon and all other gear i270. That's why I suggested that more emphasis should be on Attack Power than pure weapon damage.

Yet, I'm still convinced that, if you join a party with someone having a really low body piece, you wouldn't even notice, since the DPS would be fairly acceptable for the fight. Especially on A9 which is pretty low on party-wide damage.

Ah, now I'm getting your point - you'd go for option 3) then? And make the weapon "weaker"?
Mmh... not sure if I like that tbh - while I do see the problem here with questlines like the relic and weapons being the ultimate reward from raids I can understand that they're giving the most boost when it comes to damage - just like armor gives you more HP/protection for incoming damage. The weapon is what deals damage, the rest of the gear is what protects you - seems pretty intutive to me...
And its also a bit more "interesting" - we dont have that many choices in the game after all, but if every piece of gear basically does the same those options get even lowered when it doesnt matter if you get a new weapon or a new bodypiece.

(and btw: I do notice when the DPS, tank or healer are missing good gear in dungeons - and depending on the duty I'll say something. Had a tank in DV recently, best accessory was a level 39 earring, everything else was way below. We couldnt do the duty because the healer couldnt keep him up - probably because they were missing 2-3k HP...? And yes, this was a tank - but why should dps NOT have to care about gear?)

[Reynhart]

Mmh... not sure if I like that tbh - while I do see the problem here with questlines like the relic and weapons being the ultimate reward from raids I can understand that they're giving the most boost when it comes to damage - just like armor gives you more HP/protection for incoming damage. The weapon is what deals damage, the rest of the gear is what protects you - seems pretty intutive to me...

Weapons could give something else that pure damage. That's pretty much what people requested for the Relics since 2.0. And it would introduce an interesting customization as you wouldn't automatically chose the highest ilvl weapon.
And, frankly, no one really cares about "protection". BiS is determined by what gives you the most DPS.

And its also a bit more "interesting" - we dont have that many choices in the game after all, but if every piece of gear basically does the same those options get even lowered when it doesnt matter if you get a new weapon or a new bodypiece.

That's still not a choice. Like I said above, in 7 weeks, you can earn 3150 capped tomestones. However you spend them, if you want to increase your DPS the most, you buy the weapon.

Had a tank in DV recently, best accessory was a level 39 earring, everything else was way below.

lvl 39 as best accessories is really pushing the undergear to the limit.

Through some SSS dummy work using i110 Glanzfaust and i110 Gloam Tabard I found that I did 1600 dps with the weapon and 2400 dps with the chest piece.

That's my point, the gap is too much considering the cost of both those items.

[Miste]

Maybe you should have read the next sentence...

Maybe you should have read the sentence you wrote which I quoted....

If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state.

^You, in plain readable English, said that if the game let the BLM enter then "it's not a problem".

Which was the reason for my last response to you.

Yes you said this after....

Building on that, the discussion is how the system could be tweaked to ensure that "Required ilvl" is a proper measurement.

But how does this^ sentence somehow remove or backtrack the opinion you clearly wrote in your first paragraph that "it's not a problem"? Your second paragraph doesn't somehow invalidate the first paragraph you wrote....like you are really confusing me.

Building on that? No...that isn't what the thread is about. No matter if he queued using it or changed it inside it is still a problem because no matter how he did it level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 content is massively inappropriate and the game shouldn't have let him queue with it or change to it. It's fine about your idea to make the weapon less significant, while I might not agree with that approach I have no issue with your ideas/opinions on that.

My issue was you claiming "if the game lets you enter it's not a problem". Which is why I posted that example in my last post, which you didn't comment on for some reason, about Queueing as a tank for level 60 dungeons with full crafting gear and healing accessories on.



This is a tank queueing for a dungeon wearing all crafting gear and healing accessories and level 50 weapon going into level 60 content. The game let me do it. So I guess it isn't a problem?

Again, as soon as you say that it isn't a problem because the game let them queue then what I just did in that screenshot is 100% no problem at all. That's why you just cannot support that kind of reasoning because in the end you just turn into a hypocrite. Anyone who plays this game knows that screenshot is a serious problem. (btw I have less VIT than a level 40 something tank)

Now my example doesn't have much to do with the topic because honestly I've never seen someone do what I just tried to do (I really hope no one would be dense enough to do it either; the potential is there it is just unlikely), but using "the game let them enter" as a reason why it is no problem that the BLM was there in that state... that's where it becomes ridiculous. You just can't accept that and that is what my example is showing.

Yes the game let him queue, or the game let him change to that weapon in the instance, but weapon by itself is too important which is why I advocate a simple change to the DF system where it checks your weapon when you try to queue and inside the instance will bar you from changing to a massively inappropriate weapon also.

Just because the game lets you queue doesn't mean there are no flaws with the DF system. It obviously isn't perfect looking at the screenshot I just took. If it was perfect it wouldn't let someone queue in a state where they cannot do their job for the content and extremely hard (if not completely impossible) for you to clear the content.

Note: I hit withdraw, not going into a dungeon like that :/

You believe if the game let him enter then there is no problem and that there is only a problem if he changes gear inside the instance, but in the end you are just ignoring the fact that the reason for this thread is the fact that he could actually queue with that weapon (I checked on my BLM and equipping an i110 weapon only brought me down to i240), or he could switch to it inside the duty, and BOTH scenarios are a problem.

[Reynhart]

Which is why I posted that example in my last post, which you didn't comment on for some reason, about Queueing as a tank for level 60 dungeons with full crafting gear and healing accessories on.

I didn't comment on that because I said, pages ago, that gear should be more rescrited towards job that can wear it.

but in the end you are just ignoring the fact that the reason for this thread is the fact that he could actually queue with that weapon (I checked on my BLM and equipping an i110 weapon only brought me down to i240), or he could switch to it inside the duty, and BOTH scenarios are a problem.

I wouldn't suggest changes if there wasn't a problem.

[B]Just because the game lets you queue doesn't mean there are no flaws with the DF system.

That's your opinion, mine is that there is a flaw in gear weighting.

[Miste]

I didn't comment on that because I said, pages ago, that gear should be more rescrited towards job that can wear it.

Restricting gear has a negative aspect with it since it removes certain glamour options for people; while simply fixing the DF so that it cannot be misused doesn't remove glamour options. So, sorry this isn't the better option over just fixing the DF instead.

That's your opinion, mine is that there is a flaw in gear weighting.

It's not really just an opinion after showing factual evidence that it is flawed. Are you really still denying it?

I can't believe you can look at that screenshot and not see it as a flaw. If someone did queue like that they would be unable to even complete the instance no matter what group they got. Yes it is unlikely that anyone would seriously do that, but the potential is still there, which makes the system definitely not perfect. Not perfect = it has flaws; which means there is room for improvement.

The example I put forth with the tank screenshot has nothing to do with gear weighting. Even if they altered the weight of the gear the DF system would still let me queue with that i150 gear. I was queuing for an i145 dungeon while almost all my gear slots were between i140-i150 (in case you don't understand what I mean it means ALL my gear was actually within acceptable proper item level for the content...it was just the wrong gear that had no tank stats on any of it).

So even if the ilevel weights changed I would still be able to queue like that due to the flaws in the DF system right now that it does not check that your main stat/weapon is proper. This is a flaw since people cannot do their job in the content and the game lets them queue and doesn't tell them it is improper when they do things like this BLM did or what my tank in the screenshot did. I just hopefully doubt someone would equip all that improper gear while weapon is just one piece so way more often I have seen people knowingly or unknowingly abuse the system using very improper ones.

While I agree with you that gear weighting can be seen as flawed as well (since the item level system weighs all pieces equally when they actually aren't), you cannot say the gear weighting is flawed without acknowledging the DF system is flawed as well in this particular case.

The flaw in the ilevel weights OR the DF system makes it so people can use very improper weapons and still queue but they cannot do their job in the content. While the DF alone also lets people queue with absolutely no gear on that increases their main job's stats which also makes it so people cannot do their job in the content.

Both are the same nature of flaw. So you supporting one while denying the other makes zero sense. Fixing the DF would fix both these issues listed while fixing the weights only fixes one of them. While the weapon issue is the main one because the other I have never seen someone do yet it still would be beneficial for SE to fix both.

I choose to fix the DF flaw over the weight flaw and I understand you choose to fix the weight flaw...but you deny the DF flaw even exists which really makes no sense at this point and is the main reason for my recent responses to you. You really need to look closely at what I have been saying to you.

Basically if we fix the weighting we can possibly fix the weapon issue this is true (I feel this method will cause more problems than it helps since it is directly connected to too many aspects of the game, so I still don't agree), but if we fix the DF, just adding a few more checks, not only do we fix the weapon problem but maybe SE will fix the other issue of the tank example I gave to end this improper gear problem altogether and we also won't lose any glamour over it since the game won't let people queue with crafting gear and improper accessories anymore even if they can wear it.

Your opinion to fix the weighting is fine, but if you don't understand by now what I mean about denying the DF system problems then I am done bothering. Sorry, but I am just going to end up repeating myself.

[Reynhart]

It's not really just an opinion after showing factual evidence that it is flawed. Are you really still denying it?

/sigh
No, I'm not denying. There is a flaw between ilvl requirement and the impact of the weapon.
To remove that flaw, you thing ilvl requirement should be changed to match the current impact of weapon, I think the impact of weapon should be changed to match the current calculation of ilvl requirement.

[Miste]

/sigh
No, I'm not denying. There is a flaw between ilvl requirement and the impact of the weapon.

/sigh

I never said you were denying the flaw in the ilevel requirement and impact of the weapon....you are reading before responding right?

flaws in the DF system

acknowledging the DF system is flawed

you deny the DF flaw even exists which really makes no sense at this point and is the main reason for my recent responses to you.

^I said you were denying the flaws in the DF system. All my recent responses have been about THAT; nothing about the weighting idea of yours

If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state.

^Initial statement you made denying the problems with the DF system. All my recent responses to you goes back to this quote from you. You still haven't responded about why you think that is an okay mentality to have even with all the evidence I've given you on why it isn't okay.

My issue was you claiming "if the game lets you enter it's not a problem"

^Me telling you this is the issue I have with your post, not your weighting idea or anything to do with the ilevel weights at all actually.

Just because the game lets you queue doesn't mean there are no flaws with the DF system.

^Showed you, with a screenshot, the scenario I described proving the flaw in the DF system that would let a tank queue while in a state that is completely unable to tank the content at all.

So yeah please point out where I said you denied the ilevel and weapon impact because that isn't what I've been talking about this whole time <.<
I've been talking about you saying that special statement you made "if the game decided you can enter, then it's not a problem"

You got pouty because you didn't get the perfect party you wanted, Yes, you do deserve the penalty.

So....if you got a tank like this ^ in your DF party when you loaded into a dungeon.

Would you be upset?
Would you leave?
Would you vote kick?
Would you be mad they wasted your time?

Seriously curious. If you say Yes to ANY of those, you are a hypocrite.

[JunseiKei]

LOL. Wow. The adds can kill you before a healer can get one heal off.

"Alright, who wants to run with me!? I can queue in DF, so clearly this is acceptable!"