[DEV Question] Why is this allowed?

[Reynhart]

The fact that there are people defending this is just sad.

You're missing the real issue here. "Required ilvl" is made to ensure that your character is able to properly do its part. If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state. If he had a higher weapon, then switched it, resulting in a lower ilvl than required, then it would be a problem.

Building on that, the discussion is how the system could be tweaked to ensure that "Required ilvl" is a proper measurement. Some people advocate for higher emphasis en weapon ilvl either by adjusting the weight or putting a "min weapon ilvl required", I suggested that weapon should not have such a vastly superior impact than basically every other piece of gear, since all items are chosen in regards to their damage increase.

If armor would not increase DPS (And weapon would not increase survivability, even if only a little), I'd be totally ok to put a "AP required" and "VIT required" on duties, akin to the multiple requirements of GC Squadrons.

[Nestama]

You're missing the real issue here. "Required ilvl" is made to ensure that your character is able to properly do its part. If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state. If he had a higher weapon, then switched it, resulting in a lower ilvl than required, then it would be a problem.

Weren't people able to enter Duties with Crafting/Gathering accessories? or rather, entirely dressed in Crafting/Gathering gear? Or are they still able to?

It is a problem if a person is using a weapon that is both ten levels and a hundred and twenty item levels below the minimum ilvl of the content. If SE went with your suggestion, the BLM would actually do even less damage since their weapon is now more "balanced" towards i110 gear (and those secondary stats they went with... what even).

[Reynhart]

If SE went with your suggestion, the BLM would actually do even less damage since their weapon is now more "balanced" towards i110 gear (and those secondary stats they went with... what even).

No, the BLM would do more damage since its Attack Power would have a greater impact

[Nestama]

No, the BLM would do more damage since its Attack Power would have a greater impact

So let me get this straight... if SE goes with your idea and a player with a level 50 weapon, possibly in the i90 range and they enter level 60 content with mostly i260-270 gear and accessories, their DPS will still be decent because of their gear stats? What even is the point of a weapon then? i230-240, 250 and 260-270 gear are very easy to acquire (Savage being the exception), whereas a weapon requires you to earn it either by grinding PotD, doing Alexander Midas/Creator 4 or 7 times to get tokens, beating Primals, beating Alexander Prime Savage, or doing the long Anima quest.

It is still possible to enter a duty only wearing crafter gear, you need only high enough average item level and you could enter ARF maybe higher, depending on your weapon and individual style of gear mixup.

Alrighty, so if I find a way to equip crafter gear and still be able to enter The Creator, Reynhart would have to concede that this is perfectly alright, since the game decided to let me enter :^)

[Legion88]

Weren't people able to enter Duties with Crafting/Gathering accessories? or rather, entirely dressed in Crafting/Gathering gear? Or are they still able to?

It is still possible to enter a duty only wearing crafter gear, you need only high enough average item level and you could enter ARF maybe higher, depending on your weapon and individual style of gear mixup.

[Miste]

"Required ilvl" is made to ensure that your character is able to properly do its part.

You cannot properly do your part with a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 end game content. Not sure why I would have to repeat this fact at this point in the thread.

If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state.

No....I've basically shown that it is a problem with that in progress run with the BLM in my original post and also the testing I did.

The group wiped (possibly multiple times) before people ditched and DF eventually replaced half the group with people who could carry this player's low DPS due to the BLM's massively improper weapon. So not only did he waste his own time; he wasted the time of up to 11+ other players (the party was half missing when I joined). I believe the DF itself shouldn't let that happen.

As soon as you argue that "it is not a problem because the game let him queue" then...that means I could dress my tank in the full i150 crafter gear and queue for ARF/Fractal/Neverreap and no one should have any problem with it even though I won't be able to actually tank or do my job. Still no problem?

This is the gear I could wear on my tank and still queue:

http://xivdb.com/item/11959/chimeric...an+of+crafting
http://xivdb.com/item/11964/chimeric...et+of+crafting
http://xivdb.com/item/11977/chimerical+felt+skirt
http://xivdb.com/item/11982/serpentskin+shoes
http://xivdb.com/item/11969/serpents...es+of+crafting

To top all this off I could even equip healing accessories to go with this crafting gear and still queue so I would have almost no VIT and no STR.

This is just an example and it isn't really end game content (more like entry level end game) but it is basically an example showing you that the game might let you queue but obviously there are times when it shouldn't (just like my original post) and that it is a problem whether you want to accept it or not.

This is seriously not a problem that I am there in that state because the game let me queue? If you still think that then I don't know what to say.

[Vidu]

If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state.

Seems to me you're the one missing the problem here - unless we want to assume that having a weapon this far below the requirements for the duty is "working as intended", the system is obviously flawed, because this shouldnt happen (and I cant imagine that the devs really had this sort of thing in mind when creating the average ilvl requirement...).
Asking for this to change is totally legit - we got the minimum ilvl because it was pointed out that people were entering dungeons without proper gear. This system doesnt has to be fixed - just because the game allows for it right now doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed how to change it to prevent such "abuse" (you cant be fine with this sort of gear in this sort of content).

So saying "But the game says its fine!" is a pretty lame answer, specially when the whole thread was about "This shouldnt be fine, please change the system somehow". Just because something is okay/"legal" at somepoint doesnt mean it cant or shouldnt change...

[Reynhart]

No....I've basically shown that it is a problem with that in progress run with the BLM in my original post and also the testing I did.

Maybe you should have read the next sentence...

Building on that, the discussion is how the system could be tweaked to ensure that "Required ilvl" is a proper measurement.

Seems to me you're the one missing the problem here - unless we want to assume that having a weapon this far below the requirements for the duty is "working as intended", the system is obviously flawed, because this shouldnt happen

If the same player came with i110 head, hands, and feet, no one would even have noticed...

This system doesnt has to be fixed - just because the game allows for it right now doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed how to change it to prevent such "abuse" (you cant be fine with this sort of gear in this sort of content).

Hmm, yeah...that's what we do here...

People are only defending this coz its a dps, if it was any other role it wouldn't be tolerated for a second.

Let me borrow your sentence, please. People are only bitching about this coz it's a weapon, if it was any other piece, it wouldn't matter at all.

[Vidu]

If the same player came with i110 head, hands, and feet, no one would even have noticed...
Let me borrow your sentence, please. People are only bitching about this coz it's a weapon, if it was any other piece, it wouldn't matter at all.

Yeah, but thats the issue here: ONE piece of gear making a huge difference (specially compared to accessories).
So there are basically three options:
1) Average ilvl is calculated based on the "weight" the piece is contirbuting - aka weapon more than the bodypiece and the bodypiece more than your earrings
2) We seperate ilvl and weapon-ilvl
3) The contribution of the weapon to the overall damage gets lowered (atm it seems that it makes up about half of the damage instead of the 1/13 or 2/13 that it is when calculating the average ilvl)

The issue is simply: not having appropriate gear always sucks, but when it comes to the weapon is especially bad because of the system that is in place. So this seems to be a problem that should be adressed - again, just because the game allows someone with an ilvl110 weapon to enter Alexander at the moment, doesnt mean that that is okay (and quite frankly I cant imagine that thats "working as intended") and doesnt has to change.

And I still think that your potential with an i110 head, hands, waist and feet and other gear i270 including the weapon should not be miles above having an i110 weapon and all other gear i270. That's why I suggested that more emphasis should be on Attack Power than pure weapon damage.

Yet, I'm still convinced that, if you join a party with someone having a really low body piece, you wouldn't even notice, since the DPS would be fairly acceptable for the fight. Especially on A9 which is pretty low on party-wide damage.

Ah, now I'm getting your point - you'd go for option 3) then? And make the weapon "weaker"?
Mmh... not sure if I like that tbh - while I do see the problem here with questlines like the relic and weapons being the ultimate reward from raids I can understand that they're giving the most boost when it comes to damage - just like armor gives you more HP/protection for incoming damage. The weapon is what deals damage, the rest of the gear is what protects you - seems pretty intutive to me...
And its also a bit more "interesting" - we dont have that many choices in the game after all, but if every piece of gear basically does the same those options get even lowered when it doesnt matter if you get a new weapon or a new bodypiece.

(and btw: I do notice when the DPS, tank or healer are missing good gear in dungeons - and depending on the duty I'll say something. Had a tank in DV recently, best accessory was a level 39 earring, everything else was way below. We couldnt do the duty because the healer couldnt keep him up - probably because they were missing 2-3k HP...? And yes, this was a tank - but why should dps NOT have to care about gear?)

[Reynhart]

Mmh... not sure if I like that tbh - while I do see the problem here with questlines like the relic and weapons being the ultimate reward from raids I can understand that they're giving the most boost when it comes to damage - just like armor gives you more HP/protection for incoming damage. The weapon is what deals damage, the rest of the gear is what protects you - seems pretty intutive to me...

Weapons could give something else that pure damage. That's pretty much what people requested for the Relics since 2.0. And it would introduce an interesting customization as you wouldn't automatically chose the highest ilvl weapon.
And, frankly, no one really cares about "protection". BiS is determined by what gives you the most DPS.

And its also a bit more "interesting" - we dont have that many choices in the game after all, but if every piece of gear basically does the same those options get even lowered when it doesnt matter if you get a new weapon or a new bodypiece.

That's still not a choice. Like I said above, in 7 weeks, you can earn 3150 capped tomestones. However you spend them, if you want to increase your DPS the most, you buy the weapon.

Had a tank in DV recently, best accessory was a level 39 earring, everything else was way below.

lvl 39 as best accessories is really pushing the undergear to the limit.

Through some SSS dummy work using i110 Glanzfaust and i110 Gloam Tabard I found that I did 1600 dps with the weapon and 2400 dps with the chest piece.

That's my point, the gap is too much considering the cost of both those items.