[DEV Question] Why is this allowed?

[Ama_Hamada]

I'm not implying we shouldn't have requirements for entry into various duties. We have that right now.

But let's use your example here, even though I think your weights are a little off based on the actual value of individual pieces of gear.

I used all those numbers and switched the weapon to i90. It gave me a result of: 214

So you'd be ok with someone carrying around an i90 weapon in, say... Weeping City? That'd be ok? I suspect it would not be ok and the same people in this thread who think that averaging item levels to figure out a basic gear level doesn't work would be saying the same thing.

You're looking for a programmed solution to this and there really isn't one that isn't horribly unfair. There isn't always an algorithmic way around everything. The BLM referenced in the OP is probably just making an absentminded mistake. But even if he was trying to be a troll and use a broom to kill A9, you're not going to stop him like this. People who want to waste your time are going to find a way to do it and all you're doing is creating roadblocks that both don't need to exist AND won't solve your problem.

Well it is a work in progress, and more of an experiment to see if we can come up with an algorithmic way. Going with this:

For jobs without an offhand, the main hand counts twice. iLvl calculation is always X/13

I did not know that and thanks for the post. If we bring this idea to my weights, mh/oh would be 10/10 while mh/ no ability for offhand would be x20

SE really should put a minimum gear piece iLVL requirement in too, average just doesn't work as well as it's intended. It doesn't have to be crazy but 20-30 iLVLs should be fine imo. You should not be doing creator with a ravana weapon, you are just lazy.

Saying you need all slots be at least 180 to enter Weeping City should not be a stretch while needing the 205. There is plenty of damage that you can't avoid and asking for 1 shot if you are not geared well enough. It is more not fair to stress healers because people don't gear right, then making gear requirements that may seem a bit too strict. You can get 235 gear while using 150 gear, there should be no excuse to be so under geared in this time and age.

[TaleraRistain]

The issue comes into play with how stats weigh into your overall strength. And sadly WD is the highest weighed stat in the game in regards to how it affects you characters potency, it is a considerable detriment to your own damage (and by consequence the party's damage) when you enter something like a lvl 60 raid with a weapon that is ilvl 130.

1) It's Duty Finder
2) Being a coder myself, if it isn't broken and not going to provide immense benefit to all users then why risk breaking what is currently working? This seems to be a very narrow range of influence, and it doesn't seem the risk is worth the reward.

[Zojha]

You're looking for a programmed solution to this and there really isn't one that isn't horribly unfair.

Would it really be "horribly unfair" to just check the stats directly instead of going over the proxy of item level?

I mean, when we set requirements, we don't really care about item level, item level is merely a proxy for the relevant stats behind item level, which are Weapon Damage, Main Stat and Defense. All we need to do is to check those directly, multiply them by the job specific factor (since different jobs have different absolute values) to make them comparable and then use that as minimum requirements.

I mean, that doesn't stop people from equipping worse gear if they overgear a content - but regardless of what you do, you can't fall below the minimum stats. So the BLM in this case would see a red:"Weapon Damage" warning and go:"Oh! Right, I forgot to switch." Using accessories of another job wouldn't affect the requirements anymore, so that's out as well. And I wouldn't have to get a stroke because the vault-geared tank I'm supposed to heal through Mhach followed an old guide and boosted his iLvL with crafted i250 STR accessories to become the squishiest member in the party >_> (Minor hyperbole - I think the casters were still squishier. But gee, that one was a ride!)

[Miste]

Fact of the matter is this was probably just an absentminded mistake by the player in question and not something they were doing maliciously.

Fact of the matter is that has nothing to do with what I am pointing out. I am questioning the DF system design, not the player's intentions. In the end I don't care what his intentions were or not (it he did it on purpose it is pretty sad, but what can I really do about it besides offer this suggestion?) only that the game let it happen and I think it is a design flaw.

You also cleared the fight so it couldn't have had THAT much of an impact on you. Had you wiped due to failing a dps check

I see it a different way if you're able too clear it at a decent pace still with a blm using that weapon and have decent gear it shows to me dungeon are really just that simple. It would have been more fun to see if a healer was doing this however, but if blm was using 230+ maybe shave off a couple minutes.

It requires AVERAGE ilvl not actual. And at the end of the day who cares that is the easiest of the Alex runs let the guy have his fun. As long as it did not hinder your enjoyment or cause a wipe let them be.

Also since so many people are stuck on "you cleared and didn't wipe" I will provide more information that I had thought wasn't necessary because I didn't see how someone could possibly defend using a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 content no matter if we "cleared" or not. Whether we cleared or not I have no issue with. My issue is finding this loophole in the DF system where someone can use a weapon extremely inappropriate for the duty.

The duty in question was an in progress queue at 32m for Eyes of Creator. 32m? They wiped. Possibly more than once even.

People eventually ditched and I got in progress on healer with half the party missing, but since I am patient I waited for it to fill and I don't usually scrutinize people's gear for no reason either. They definitely wiped just some people got replaced and got people able to carry his low DPS including me since I had to DPS Faust on healer because we almost wiped and also DPS the adds too so we wouldn't wipe.

There were plenty of red flags during the run to make me realize something was wrong.

Faust almost wiped us because it wasn't dying nearly fast enough. So I had to help DPS on healer otherwise we would have wiped right there.

After Faust died we had 6 power generator add sets we had to kill before we were able to kill the boss.

To give you some idea of how abnormal that is even on week one of release of A9N average groups were only getting 3 power generator add sets after Faust died before killing main boss. As of right now the average group in A9N only gets 1-2 power generator add sets.

(Note: for clarification every time I mentioned Faust here I meant the one IN the boss fight, not the trash one before the main boss room.)

So I wasn't personally there for the wipes, but I am 99.9% sure they happened considering the large amount of time lapsed in the duty when I joined in progress.

Again I must reiterate that the speed of the run I have zero issue with. I really don't care that it took 4 minutes longer than usual or that I swear we almost hit enrage (if there is one). The thing I am pointing out is that this is badly designed.

With how SE designed gear in this game the Weapons are just too important to have someone doing level 60 end game content with a level 50 i110 weapon. Simple fact is they cannot do their role properly like that. DPS will do extremely gimped damage, healers will have extremely gimped heals, tanks will have less HP and be unable to hold aggro.

This game works like this: no matter how much skill or knowledge you have if your gear is massively inappropriate for the content you cannot do your role properly. Since weapon is so important a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 avg i230 content is massively inappropriate.

Just for some more information on why this is true. I just used a level 50 i110 Staff (Laevateinn) on my BLM and tried to complete the SSS for Alexander Creator and I was unable to kill the dummy. I failed the SSS even though I only changed my weapon to i110. My damage was cut by roughly 50% just because I changed my staff from an i260 one to an i110. It actually even surprised ME that it was that much worse! I knew it was bad but even I underestimated how bad.

Rest of my gear was 7 i270 pieces, 2 i260 pieces, and 2 i250 pieces. My avg item level was i240 with the i110 staff on with the rest of my gear (still failed even tho my avg item level is 10 levels higher than minimum for Alex Creator normal all because of my weapon). For comparison my normal item level with my proper staff is i265.

So, yeah, I am not claiming to be best BLM. I'm not perfect or the best, but I am a competent one (cleared A11S and A12S SSS dummies) and if even a competent one can fail the SSS DPS check with an i110 weapon? Not good.

[LalaRu]

On second view, I can tell that we can put bad gear in same league of bad playing, so if the player we got is ungeared or geared but with abysmal use of the class, it is same thing, so no need to add more automatic checks than the average ilevel.

[Ama_Hamada]

ALL DFS from Sastasha to salvage needs better gear checks and a better system. I seen it lots of times and yes it is a bigger issue then people seem to make it out to be, where people where too undergeared, it made it too difficult to clear the place. I should not be at the point of stressing to carry just because someone is lazy/does not know,how important gear is because the DF allows them to queue for it. It is ridiculous I can find people in level 50 dfs with a level 45 NQ weapon (places you need be around gear level 70 ish) Seeing someone use a 170 ish weapon as a healer in weeping (I solo healed that fyi) and having level 1-5 gear tank for sastasha because it is " just sastasha" and does not matter. It did end up mattering so yeah we need better guidelines for DF entry. Just because I can carry it, does not mean I should be, and stressing over it.

Asking for level 10 average for sastasha is not much, asking to have at least a level 60 weapon for low end 50 content, 80-90 weapon for upper level 50 content should not be asking much, you can easily get dirt cheap 110 weapons from the market board and 120 tome weapon. People do this because they think they can get away with it because the game allows them, and mot cases they are correct because most cases people can carry them, but there are going to be cases where you simply can't and this shouldn't be allowed to begin with. We shouldn't have to carry people to this degree because people do not know because the system allows them to.

Fact of the matter is that has nothing to do with what I am pointing out. I am questioning the DF system design, not the player's intentions. In the end I don't care what his intentions were or not (it he did it on purpose it is pretty sad, but what can I really do about it besides offer this suggestion?) only that the game let it happen and I think it is a design flaw.







Also since so many people are stuck on "you cleared and didn't wipe" I will provide more information that I had thought wasn't necessary because I didn't see how someone could possibly defend using a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 content no matter if we "cleared" or not. Whether we cleared or not I have no issue with. My issue is finding this loophole in the DF system where someone can use a weapon extremely inappropriate for the duty.

The duty in question was an in progress queue at 32m for Eyes of Creator. 32m? They wiped. Possibly more than once even.

People eventually ditched and I got in progress on healer with half the party missing, but since I am patient I waited for it to fill and I don't usually scrutinize people's gear for no reason either. They definitely wiped just some people got replaced and got people able to carry his low DPS including me since I had to DPS Faust on healer because we almost wiped and also DPS the adds too so we wouldn't wipe.

There were plenty of red flags during the run to make me realize something was wrong.

Faust almost wiped us because it wasn't dying nearly fast enough. So I had to help DPS on healer otherwise we would have wiped right there.

After Faust died we had 6 power generator add sets we had to kill before we were able to kill the boss.

To give you some idea of how abnormal that is even on week one of release of A9N average groups were only getting 3 power generator add sets after Faust died before killing main boss. As of right now the average group in A9N only gets 1-2 power generator add sets.

(Note: for clarification every time I mentioned Faust here I meant the one IN the boss fight, not the trash one before the main boss room.)

So I wasn't personally there for the wipes, but I am 99.9% sure they happened considering the large amount of time lapsed in the duty when I joined in progress.

Again I must reiterate that the speed of the run I have zero issue with. I really don't care that it took 4 minutes longer than usual or that I swear we almost hit enrage (if there is one). The thing I am pointing out is that this is badly designed.

With how SE designed gear in this game the Weapons are just too important to have someone doing level 60 end game content with a level 50 i110 weapon. Simple fact is they cannot do their role properly like that. DPS will do extremely gimped damage, healers will have extremely gimped heals, tanks will have less HP and be unable to hold aggro.

This game works like this: no matter how much skill or knowledge you have if your gear is massively inappropriate for the content you cannot do your role properly. Since weapon is so important a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 avg i230 content is massively inappropriate.

Just for some more information on why this is true. I just used a level 50 i110 Staff (Laevateinn) on my BLM and tried to complete the SSS for Alexander Creator and I was unable to kill the dummy. I failed the SSS even though I only changed my weapon to i110. My damage was cut by roughly 50% just because I changed my staff from an i260 one to an i110. It actually even surprised ME that it was that much worse! I knew it was bad but even I underestimated how bad.

Rest of my gear was 7 i270 pieces, 2 i260 pieces, and 2 i250 pieces. My avg item level was i240 with the i110 staff on with the rest of my gear (still failed even tho my avg item level is 10 levels higher than minimum for Alex Creator normal all because of my weapon). For comparison my normal item level with my proper staff is i265.

So, yeah, I am not claiming to be best BLM. I'm not perfect or the best, but I am a competent one (cleared A11S and A12S SSS dummies) and if even a competent one can fail the SSS DPS check with an i110 weapon? Not good.

That is really insane, and ya I wouldn't expect people defending this either. It is a bigger problem then some people make it to be just because they can be carried though it. Well I am tried of it and this thread reminded me of that fact. The game needs stricter guidelines then the current because people do not care/ do not know better.

[odintius]

[QUOTE=Miste;4044826]Also since so many people are stuck on "you cleared and didn't wipe" I will provide more information that I had thought wasn't necessary because I didn't see how someone could possibly defend using a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 content no matter if we "cleared" or not. Whether we cleared or not I have no issue with. My issue is finding this loophole in the DF system where someone can use a weapon extremely inappropriate./QUOTE]

I wasn't trying to defend it just point out in dungeons that we currently have know is a joke especially when over geared for it the ilvl entry point is also a joke IMO. So yes I would like a change with current gear to match the newer content when released give people a reason to gear up better not have ilvls like 30+ lvl below when I'm ilvl 255+...

[odintius]

[QUOTE=Miste;4044826]Also since so many people are stuck on "you cleared and didn't wipe" I will provide more information that I had thought wasn't necessary because I didn't see how someone could possibly defend using./QUOTE]

I wasn't trying to defend it just point out in dungeons that we currently have know is a joke especially when over geared for it the ilvl entry point for current dungeons is also a joke IMO. So yes I would like a change with current gear to match the newer content when released give people a reason to gear up better not have ilvls like 30 or more lvl below when I'm ilvl 255+.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Actually, this is completely different...in fact, it's the exact opposite. Would you hire someone having all the necessary skills/knowledge to perform the job but not dressed to look the part ?

Okay, let's play that game. I'm gonna adapt what you just said to the game itself:
Would you stay in a party with someone who's effectively geared up to an above average degree, but cannot perform their job or rotations properly? Or would you take the guy that's maybe a bit below average gear level but can perform his job/rotations very well?

Simply put, are you implying gear = skill? Because we all know that's just not true.

1) It's Duty Finder

No. NO. NO. That mentality is a large part of the problem itself, and a terrible mindset to have. Savage raid or guildhest; if you're going to be part of a team, come prepared, do your part to the fullest. "It's just duty finder" is the reason why performance and expectations are so low. People expect the worst, so they give their worst. Imagine if the opposite were true; we'd all have better experiences in the DF.

[CGMidlander]

I'm sorry, I gotta shut this down right away.

There is nothing elitist about expecting someone to be properly prepared for content, and in a sensible manner.
Would you hire someone who came to an interview dressed to look the part, but lacking the skills/necessary knowledge to perform the job they're aiming for? If no, this is no different.

Fact is, even with all that gear, that weapon guaranteed he dealt damage well under par (also meaning that someone else had to perhaps do more to make up for it).

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