[DEV Question] Why is this allowed?

[Ama_Hamada]

The problem with changing from an average item level to some kind of weighted system or requiring a certain ilvl weapon to participate in content is: what limit do you set? Who gets to choose?You could say that SE gets to choose, but SE chose this and you're not satisfied. There was another thread a few weeks ago where someone was saying that an i230 weapon should be required to queue for expert roulettes. I'm sure if you asked 20 different people what the requirements should be for something like this, you'd end up with 20 different and mutually-exclusive answers.

Fact of the matter is this was probably just an absentminded mistake by the player in question and not something they were doing maliciously. You also cleared the fight so it couldn't have had THAT much of an impact on you. Had you wiped due to failing a dps check, someone might have pointed this out to the guy, he'd say "woops, my bad" and fix it because he probably just didn't realize what he was doing there.

It should be a weighed system for figuring out the true average. If SE says you need 230 to enter something you NEED 230+ weapon. The people that decide the weighs are the same people that give a min entry to begin with.

[Callinon]

It should be a weighed system for figuring out the true average. If SE says you need 230 to enter something you NEED 230+ weapon. The people that decide the weighs are the same people that give a min entry to begin with.

Largely that's the duty finder doing that. So again you're asking for an automated system different than the automated system we currently have.

You also used the terms "weighted system" and "true average" in the same sentence. The system right now finds the true average as determined by math. Seriously, you can do the math yourself, you'll get the same number the game does. You're asking for different slots to be weighted differently, so you're no longer asking for a true average, you're asking for a weighted average.

[Ama_Hamada]

Largely that's the duty finder doing that. So again you're asking for an automated system different than the automated system we currently have.

You also used the terms "weighted system" and "true average" in the same sentence. The system right now finds the true average as determined by math. Seriously, you can do the math yourself, you'll get the same number the game does. You're asking for different slots to be weighted differently, so you're no longer asking for a true average, you're asking for a weighted average.

No you do not. The gear is weighed differently stat wise, your true average should reflect this. I do not appreciate the semantics, as it should be clear what I mean, and I hope it does now.

[Callinon]

No you do not. The gear is weighed differently stat wise, your true average should reflect this. I do not appreciate the semantics, as it should be clear what I mean, and I hope it does now.

Whether you appreciate it or not, words have meanings and you should use the right ones if you want to communicate effectively and be understood.

You've also decided that math just isn't quite good enough to do this job, so something else is going to have to do it. Never mind the fact that the existing system works fine and produces successful parties (including the one in the OP) far FAR more often than it doesn't.

[Gumbercules]

Whether you appreciate it or not, words have meanings and you should use the right ones if you want to communicate effectively and be understood.

You've also decided that math just isn't quite good enough to do this job, so something else is going to have to do it. Never mind the fact that the existing system works fine and produces successful parties (including the one in the OP) far FAR more often than it doesn't.

Guess i can get behind this position, since even in my example it was literally a 1 in 50 occurrence. Probably why SE hasn't changed it since it could potentially over-reach and affect alot more ppl than it helps.

[Ama_Hamada]

Whether you appreciate it or not, words have meanings and you should use the right ones if you want to communicate effectively and be understood.

You've also decided that math just isn't quite good enough to do this job, so something else is going to have to do it. Never mind the fact that the existing system works fine and produces successful parties (including the one in the OP) far FAR more often than it doesn't.

Your post makes no sense, you are actually implying we should not have any minimum requirements. Guess what? weighting them is also math, what you seem to be missing is that going from a 250 > 270 ring is the same as 250 >270 weapon just because the game does the aveerage that way. It does not, each slot is weighted differently and this should be reflected in the gear average itself. It is reflected in tome prices and material cost, so it is absurd and makes no sense it is not reflected in gear average.

each slot should be weighed, each slot is not an equal increase. Way you are talking makes me feel you do not even understand how weighing works, it will look like this:

Current:
weapon 255
head 260
body 260
hands 260
belt 270
legs 270
feet 260
earring 270
neck 260
brace 270
ring 260
ring 270

3165/12 = 263 like it says in game but this is not a true average on how the different slots are weighted differently in stat giving and improvements. Now if we take my suggested weights earlier we get:

weapon 255 x10 = 2550
head 260 x3 = 780
body 260 x5 = 1300
hands 260 x 3 = 780
belt 270 x 1 = 270
legs 270 x 5 = 1350
feet 260 x 3 = 780
earring 270 x 1 = 270
neck 260 x 1 = 260
brace 270 x 1 = 270
ring 260 x 1 = 260
ring 270 x 1 = 270

9140 / 35 = 261

because of my weapon it pulled my average down then what the game says, and with good reason to do so. This will prevent all the complaints presented in this thread, like padding the right to pass an ilevel check with wrong stats.

I ran into a BLM with i145 staff and i250 gear on in xelphetol the other day when I was on my alt with i250 spear - I told them to get a better weapon. Even if you are terrible a weapon upgrade helps your dps tremendously.

SE really should put a minimum gear piece iLVL requirement in too, average just doesn't work as well as it's intended. It doesn't have to be crazy but 20-30 iLVLs should be fine imo. You should not be doing creator with a ravana weapon, you are just lazy.

lets see if my weights lets this person to enter there, requirement is 210

145 x 10 = 1450
everything else = 25 x 250 =6250
7700/35 =220... welp.. it is a work in progress but the current system clearly doesn't work. Also ALL <<<<< DFs need a minimum , even if it is like sastaha level 8 average, etc. The level 50s that cap at 110 should need level 70 or something because i gotta say, having someone with 90 left, a 45 nq weapon and 20-40 level per right was unbearable. carrying people so much to the point it is like 3 people, not 4 is old. I always hated the way this games handles such situations but didn't find the need to be outspoken about it, till this thread.

Making a system that makes rush levelers take 5 minutes to gear themselves in a somewhat respectable manner is not asking much.

[Callinon]

snip

I'm not implying we shouldn't have requirements for entry into various duties. We have that right now.

But let's use your example here, even though I think your weights are a little off based on the actual value of individual pieces of gear.

I used all those numbers and switched the weapon to i90. It gave me a result of: 214

So you'd be ok with someone carrying around an i90 weapon in, say... Weeping City? That'd be ok? I suspect it would not be ok and the same people in this thread who think that averaging item levels to figure out a basic gear level doesn't work would be saying the same thing.

You're looking for a programmed solution to this and there really isn't one that isn't horribly unfair. There isn't always an algorithmic way around everything. The BLM referenced in the OP is probably just making an absentminded mistake. But even if he was trying to be a troll and use a broom to kill A9, you're not going to stop him like this. People who want to waste your time are going to find a way to do it and all you're doing is creating roadblocks that both don't need to exist AND won't solve your problem.

[Zojha]

You're looking for a programmed solution to this and there really isn't one that isn't horribly unfair.

Would it really be "horribly unfair" to just check the stats directly instead of going over the proxy of item level?

I mean, when we set requirements, we don't really care about item level, item level is merely a proxy for the relevant stats behind item level, which are Weapon Damage, Main Stat and Defense. All we need to do is to check those directly, multiply them by the job specific factor (since different jobs have different absolute values) to make them comparable and then use that as minimum requirements.

I mean, that doesn't stop people from equipping worse gear if they overgear a content - but regardless of what you do, you can't fall below the minimum stats. So the BLM in this case would see a red:"Weapon Damage" warning and go:"Oh! Right, I forgot to switch." Using accessories of another job wouldn't affect the requirements anymore, so that's out as well. And I wouldn't have to get a stroke because the vault-geared tank I'm supposed to heal through Mhach followed an old guide and boosted his iLvL with crafted i250 STR accessories to become the squishiest member in the party >_> (Minor hyperbole - I think the casters were still squishier. But gee, that one was a ride!)

[Elixirboy]

3165/12 = 263 like it says in game

For jobs without an offhand, the main hand counts twice. iLvl calculation is always X/13

[Ama_Hamada]

I'm not implying we shouldn't have requirements for entry into various duties. We have that right now.

But let's use your example here, even though I think your weights are a little off based on the actual value of individual pieces of gear.

I used all those numbers and switched the weapon to i90. It gave me a result of: 214

So you'd be ok with someone carrying around an i90 weapon in, say... Weeping City? That'd be ok? I suspect it would not be ok and the same people in this thread who think that averaging item levels to figure out a basic gear level doesn't work would be saying the same thing.

You're looking for a programmed solution to this and there really isn't one that isn't horribly unfair. There isn't always an algorithmic way around everything. The BLM referenced in the OP is probably just making an absentminded mistake. But even if he was trying to be a troll and use a broom to kill A9, you're not going to stop him like this. People who want to waste your time are going to find a way to do it and all you're doing is creating roadblocks that both don't need to exist AND won't solve your problem.

Well it is a work in progress, and more of an experiment to see if we can come up with an algorithmic way. Going with this:

For jobs without an offhand, the main hand counts twice. iLvl calculation is always X/13

I did not know that and thanks for the post. If we bring this idea to my weights, mh/oh would be 10/10 while mh/ no ability for offhand would be x20

SE really should put a minimum gear piece iLVL requirement in too, average just doesn't work as well as it's intended. It doesn't have to be crazy but 20-30 iLVLs should be fine imo. You should not be doing creator with a ravana weapon, you are just lazy.

Saying you need all slots be at least 180 to enter Weeping City should not be a stretch while needing the 205. There is plenty of damage that you can't avoid and asking for 1 shot if you are not geared well enough. It is more not fair to stress healers because people don't gear right, then making gear requirements that may seem a bit too strict. You can get 235 gear while using 150 gear, there should be no excuse to be so under geared in this time and age.