The only real way to solve DPS queues

[Altena]

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I quit GW2 for a reason.

What you're explaining literally sounds to me like GW2.. Obviously with a few more fluffy bits.. But the concept of "DPS can tank" is GW2 all over again.

It became a bunch of spammy mess at the best of times. If you like that "no well defined roles" style of play then maybe you would like games like GW2. However please keep that kind of stuff out of this game. I much prefer the standard trinity system. I want my Tank to hold a mob while a DPS zergs it and a healer heals.. Call me old fashioned but that's what I subscribe to this game to play.

[Shurrikhan]

I quit GW2 for a reason.

What you're explaining literally sounds to me like GW2.. Obviously with a few more fluffy bits.. But the concept of "DPS can tank" is GW2 all over again.

It became a bunch of spammy mess at the best of times. If you like that "no well defined roles" style of play then maybe you would like games like GW2. However please keep that kind of stuff out of this game. I much prefer the standard trinity system. I want my Tank to hold a mob while a DPS zergs it and a healer heals.. Call me old fashioned but that's what I subscribe to this game to play.

This is immensely reductive.

Why do people assume that when someone says "X can be done without Y", that they're looking for Y? I have played GW2. What I suggested, is nothing like GW2. I have also played several other MMOs that had no permanent tanks, but in no case has that necessarily meant "no well defined roles". It meant only that responsibility was not left to a small portion of the party, unless the MMO failed (as with GW2) to give their players a means of conducting those roles.

The "spammy mess" you speak of in GW2 is a lack of "role" toolkit among those alleged "non-roles", making it impossible to fill those functions for which (a portion of) Trinity roles would be responsible. But that does not mean that you suddenly need specialists for the role, or that there should only ever be two levels of role capacity (the role, and the non-role). You can have multiple shades and styles of capability, so long as you embed reasons for which they cannot take that role with permanent uptime.

Imagine if tanks had no bonus enmity for instance—that is the source of your "spammy mess" in GW2. But the issue isn't not having "tanks". The issue is not having enmity skills. The difference in design, should such toolkits actually exist, is that anyone could participate in tanking, not just taking threat and then dying, and would be responsible for managing that responsibility (saving the current target) with their personal survival and output, in light of incoming raid damage and outgoing raid healing, etc. So you could have a Monk splitting damage during whatever period he is able least affected by positional bonuses, a Dragoon just before Life Surge, etc., along with alternate utilities such as a Bard drawing off enemies slowed by a Miasma II for a brief kite and position them for a Freeze or Tri-bind (because, gasp, we allowed those skills to work again). That ends up highly timeable, sync-able, by-event, quite the opposite of a "spammy mess" (in my opinion, a term better fit to the meat-shielding and tunnel-visioned DPS or mass pulls of 'unadulterated' Holy Trinity play).

Tthis thread is about improving DPS queue times in the system we currently have - simply by increasing the number of slots in a 4-man dungeon to 5-6. Please don't derail it.

So any solution presented to (more fully) mitigate DPS queue times outside of your "only real way" is thread derailment? Really? In that case, what's to talk about? Should I just say "you idea would help, but would be ultimately insufficient" and end flatly, since a counter-suggestion would be taboo?

[Altena]

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Orrrr they could just leave it as is...

And up the DPS slots in 4-mans...

It sounds to me like your suggestion or pipedream is worth another thread - rather than this one which is about improving DPS queues by simply changing party composition.

Personally I think this game's system is fine. Albeit some of the jobs are a little binary and could use a bit of a tweak, however the core system we have at the moment is fine.
Again, I would prefer my tanks to tank, my dps to focus on damage and healers to heal.

What you're suggesting is practically flipping the system on its head. And no, I am not down for that.

As I said, feel free to go ahead and create your own thread for this - but this thread is about improving DPS queue times in the system we currently have - simply by increasing the number of slots in a 4-man dungeon to 5-6. Please don't derail it.

[LalaRu]

Don't want minimize the topic, but so far my dps queues were all reasonable and didn't took more than 30min. Even shorter with in progress joins, the only drawback is being put into an empty duty.

Just to say that today we have a much better situation than before, when the hour was the norm.

[Belhi]

Don't want minimize the topic, but so far my dps queues were all reasonable and didn't took more than 30min. Even shorter with in progress joins, the only drawback is being put into an empty duty.

Just to say that today we have a much better situation than before, when the hour was the norm.

Most of what has sparked this discussion is the expectation that the addition of two dps jobs in Stormblood will trigger long dps queues for the DF, at least in the short term. This seems quite likely since something similar happened in stormblood with DRK when dps dropped to almost instant and tank queues actually got longer.

[Zojha]

I am yet to play a game where the removal of the holy trinity truly worked.

Surprising, considering that every mechanic where you have to do something other than tank and spank is independent of the trinity. And our fights in FFXIV are loaded with such - stack, spread, stand in position X, don't stand in the fire/telegraph, don't move, don't attack, bring two tethers apart, bring them together, hide behind X, use items (Cannons, Generators etc), step on traps, bait AoEs, react to buffs/debuffs, kill adds on a certain location (Quarn Plates), don't face the boss, count balls over your head and stack with the right amount of people, divebombs...none of these mechanics need the trinity.

On the flipside, the mechanics that do need the Trinity are: Arbitrary unavoidable damage (The one and only healer mechanic). Tank Swap. And the latter is just the first except tanks have to deal with it, not healers.
DPS checks/Enrages are a grey area, but I'd list them under trinity mechanics because they're only necessary when healers are so strong that they'd be able to drag the fight on forever.

Could it be that the non-trinity games you played simply had bad fight design? Because the trinity as such is actually very shallow design - All it adds is non-gameplay in form of unavoidable damage and then limited gameplay to deal with that damage.

[Vexander]

Most of what has sparked this discussion is the expectation that the addition of two dps jobs in Stormblood will trigger long dps queues for the DF, at least in the short term. This seems quite likely since something similar happened in stormblood with DRK when dps dropped to almost instant and tank queues actually got longer.

My experience with lightning fast Tanking queues early in Stormblood were a result of players bringing their main classes to cap first. Tanks will still tank, healers will still heal, etc... Since DRK didn't start until 30 I didn't see a lot of them in the 50-60 Dungeons until after the first month or so, by which time the queues were back to normal, lengthy times for DPS.

[Nighthawk4]

I wish they could fix the long delays for DPS in Dungeons.

However, if you add more DPS would the Healer be able to cope with healing 5 or 6 DPS as well as the Tank - and the Healer themselves of course?

[AlphaFox]

I wish they could fix the long delays for DPS in Dungeons.

However, if you add more DPS would the Healer be able to cope with healing 5 or 6 DPS as well as the Tank - and the Healer themselves of course?

I sure would hope so, assuming the dps know how to dodge unnecessary damage it would be the same as casting a medica for a 1/1/2 or in raids. If not, then I'd question that healers ability.

[Aniond]

Wrong. Thats not the issue. The issue is tank and healers are told to DPS. If you really want to resolve this issue. Remove Tank/healer stances from the game. That way Tank can only worry about holding aggro and healers only have to worry about healers.