The only real way to solve DPS queues

[RaizeGraymalkin]

People really exaggerate queue times. They really aren't that bad and I say this as a DPS. They don't need to do anything drastic.

[Belhi]

I think people vastly underestimate the time and resources it would take to actually add an extra slot to the party structure even if they didn't go back and redo every existing piece of content, which depending on how the grouping system was structured they might have to do. Yes, you can currently have 5 players in a group but its quite possible the existing tech wont let you cap a group at 5 members and its a cold day in hell that I am willing to run a dungeon with 6 random dps and one tank every day for my roulettes.

Oh and on healing challenge..

Healing challenging mechanics is enjoyable. Healing stupid isn't. Its frustrating and annoying. More players wont add much in the way of mechanical challenge. It will just add more stupid.

[Brian_]

I just don't think you are ever going to be able to balance the burden of responsibility in a party -- trinity or not. There will always been leaders and followers, people who step up and perform and people who just want to get by.

Giving DPS more responsibility is not going to do anything but force everyone else to carry them harder. And, if it ever gets to the point where they can't be carried, then people just quit.

Proof? 3.0-3.3X

I don't even think the current system is that flawed. I just feel like if you're going to force players to shoulder a bigger responsibility, then you're going to need to support them appropriately.

In principle, this isn't that different from many other aspects of this game. For raiders, if you're going to ask that they invest their time and skill, then some of them are going to expect to be rewarded. We saw what happened in Savage SCoB when they weren't.

Gifting 2 of the most popular jobs in FF history to DPS is not exactly a sign of support. Not releasing a tank or healer in an expansion is not a sign of support. Many have said that they're waiting to see what changes are made to existing tanks / healers but if the changes are merely a formality, then that won't be a sign of support.

A paltry amount of bonus gil or experience is not enough. Tank / Healer exclusive mounts only last so long. Fast queues is a meaningful incentive and successfully lures people to the roles but it's clearly not enough to bring some semblance of balance to queues. Then you have this topic trying to take that incentive away from the roles and assuming it won't make the problem exponentially worse.

Just look at DRK. The role was rewarded with one of the most popular jobs in the game and queues flipped on their head for a month+. I can guarantee that if SAM was a tank, DPS and healers would again have instant queues for everything.

This is a game of carrots and sticks. It's not that complicated. Like it or not, we live in the age of instant gratification. Expecting people to change is foolish.

What you're seeing with tanks / healers starting to charge for their services is the system correcting itself.

[LalaRu]

Giving DPS more responsibility is not going to do anything...

It also makes things worse, another Steps of Faith? No, please, no!

[RaphaelDDL]

It also makes things worse, another Steps of Faith? No, please, no!

I thought exactly the same.

[ZioSerpe]

Look I am not gonna pretend I've read the whole thread on this, is 8 pages and I just need to point out one thing:
In WoW you have 3 DPS 1 tank 1 healer for dungeon and the DPS ques might be even longer than they are here, and in WoW you can Que as multiple roles.
Adding 1 DPs spot is not going to make things faster.

[Mwynn]

Look I am not gonna pretend I've read the whole thread on this, is 8 pages and I just need to point out one thing:
In WoW you have 3 DPS 1 tank 1 healer for dungeon and the DPS ques might be even longer than they are here, and in WoW you can Que as multiple roles.
Adding 1 DPs spot is not going to make things faster.

You need to factor in that Melee/Ranged and also Caster Queue differently.

The Queue System is hard to understand, atleast in FFXIV, it uses some complex algorithm.
This may be a different case for WoW, may, no clue if WoW Queue System Queues Melees/Ranged/Casters differently like it does here.

Hence you never get paired with the same Jobs in 4-Man Dungeons or in 8-Man Dungeons you may never get 2x WAR or 2x WHM, this of course doesn't count for DPS Slots, only in rare circumstances the Queue System is going to put both in.

And Yes, the DPS Queuetime is going to be extremely brutal as I said before, when it comes to leveling, you're mostly going to level through Dungeons and since the Queue System favours 2 different DPS Jobs ...
It needs to find 2x Groups if there is 2x SAM or 2x RDM Queue'ing up together...

Unless Square Enix changes that, you will not have 2x SAM / 2x RDM in the Group when the Expansion comes.

[Zojha]

Look I am not gonna pretend I've read the whole thread on this, is 8 pages and I just need to point out one thing:
In WoW [...]

What's the factual role split in WoW if I may ask?

Because y'know...if you have 95% DPS, 3% healers and 2% tanks, you'll have worse DPS queue times even with triple the DPS slots than if you had a 30%, 40% 30% split.

[Altena]

Look I am not gonna pretend I've read the whole thread on this, is 8 pages and I just need to point out one thing:
In WoW you have 3 DPS 1 tank 1 healer for dungeon and the DPS ques might be even longer than they are here, and in WoW you can Que as multiple roles.
Adding 1 DPs spot is not going to make things faster.

I mean that is WoW. The ratio of Tank: Healer: DPS players is probably different. DPS queues currently are roughly 10-20 mins peak, and 20-30 mins off peak on my server. Adding another DPS slot would flat out reduce the time based on those numbers - even if you account for the new people that would queue as DPS because queues don't take as long..

The only situation where this would not reduce time is if an equal number of Tanks decided to jump the queue train back to DPS as there were slots - which would honestly be very unlikely.

Queue system doesnt always work like that. There have been plenty of times where I have got 2 SMN or when HW released 2MCH in a group. The system looks for 1 melee and 1 ranged but if it cant find that it will pair 2 melee or 2 ranged given the circumstance.

No, not always. But there is an algorithm that prioritizes this. You will occasionally get duplicate roles, or duplicate jobs.. However this is considered rare compared to when you get a Melee / Caster.

This generally happens more on off-peak times, or when you have some heavily oversaturation of jobs (NIN being solo released was an example of this, and you likely got more double MCH during early HW as well).

I think they need to remove the holy trinity. They should add a cross ability for classes like what healers have to swap stats. Rip Str and add it to Vit so a dps can tank etc. Let them learn a variety of play styles and such. Then you can have 4 dps, 4 healers, 4 tanks etc all with the ability to drop out of their comfort zone and do what needs to be done to succeed.

Always wondered why healers were the only ones that had to deal with the pita that is juggling between 2 roles.

I am yet to play a game where the removal of the holy trinity truly worked. Guild Wars 2 tried this and to be honest it was a complete failure in my eyes.

I mean if they pulled it off, sure however I would be more inclined to go for a spec tree system, which allowed a job to spec into one role or the other. However this is just flat out too much work for this game in my opinion. You would also have optimal build paths and you would likely end up in a similar situation to what we have now.

[Shurrikhan]

I am yet to play a game where the removal of the holy trinity truly worked. Guild Wars 2 tried this and to be honest it was a complete failure in my eyes.

I mean if they pulled it off, sure however I would be more inclined to go for a spec tree system, which allowed a job to spec into one role or the other. However this is just flat out too much work for this game in my opinion. You would also have optimal build paths and you would likely end up in a similar situation to what we have now.

Honestly, you don't even have to remove the Holy Trinity in order to avoid its stagnation to some extent, especially its contribution to tunnel vision and toolkit waste. You just need to adjust certain underlying mechanics, such as through reforms to mechanics like enmity (and/or to mob AI); perhaps by expanding mechanics like damage splitting, interception, or active dodging; and to add certain mechanics that can place soft windowed or situational limitations to a tank's uptime such as natural vulnerability stacking (e.g. XIII's "chain gauge" as able to affect players as well, and likely stacking slower on tanks than dps, allowing DPS to tank briefly without being overly independent or powerful generally and tanks to still make use of some DPS "snap-tanking"); or rebalance versatility in regards to simultaneous output (mitigation and damage) or functionality (survival and damage-dealing) in a different way, such as damage-based interruption (towards both enemies and allies, making DPS more capable and culpable in regards to survival) and resistance to interruption (probably significantly higher in tanks than melee than ranged than casters, such that a DPS doesn't necessarily have to be one- or two-shot by a mob for a tank to be worthwhile, as the cost can also be in part its damage-dealing).

As for the implications on dungeon-running, this need only extend a bit further—adjusting AoE formulas, as not to so soon or so effectively habituate massive pulls.