The only real way to solve DPS queues

[Altena]

Snip

I quit GW2 for a reason.

What you're explaining literally sounds to me like GW2.. Obviously with a few more fluffy bits.. But the concept of "DPS can tank" is GW2 all over again.

It became a bunch of spammy mess at the best of times. If you like that "no well defined roles" style of play then maybe you would like games like GW2. However please keep that kind of stuff out of this game. I much prefer the standard trinity system. I want my Tank to hold a mob while a DPS zergs it and a healer heals.. Call me old fashioned but that's what I subscribe to this game to play.

[Shurrikhan]

I quit GW2 for a reason.

What you're explaining literally sounds to me like GW2.. Obviously with a few more fluffy bits.. But the concept of "DPS can tank" is GW2 all over again.

It became a bunch of spammy mess at the best of times. If you like that "no well defined roles" style of play then maybe you would like games like GW2. However please keep that kind of stuff out of this game. I much prefer the standard trinity system. I want my Tank to hold a mob while a DPS zergs it and a healer heals.. Call me old fashioned but that's what I subscribe to this game to play.

This is immensely reductive.

Why do people assume that when someone says "X can be done without Y", that they're looking for Y? I have played GW2. What I suggested, is nothing like GW2. I have also played several other MMOs that had no permanent tanks, but in no case has that necessarily meant "no well defined roles". It meant only that responsibility was not left to a small portion of the party, unless the MMO failed (as with GW2) to give their players a means of conducting those roles.

The "spammy mess" you speak of in GW2 is a lack of "role" toolkit among those alleged "non-roles", making it impossible to fill those functions for which (a portion of) Trinity roles would be responsible. But that does not mean that you suddenly need specialists for the role, or that there should only ever be two levels of role capacity (the role, and the non-role). You can have multiple shades and styles of capability, so long as you embed reasons for which they cannot take that role with permanent uptime.

Imagine if tanks had no bonus enmity for instance—that is the source of your "spammy mess" in GW2. But the issue isn't not having "tanks". The issue is not having enmity skills. The difference in design, should such toolkits actually exist, is that anyone could participate in tanking, not just taking threat and then dying, and would be responsible for managing that responsibility (saving the current target) with their personal survival and output, in light of incoming raid damage and outgoing raid healing, etc. So you could have a Monk splitting damage during whatever period he is able least affected by positional bonuses, a Dragoon just before Life Surge, etc., along with alternate utilities such as a Bard drawing off enemies slowed by a Miasma II for a brief kite and position them for a Freeze or Tri-bind (because, gasp, we allowed those skills to work again). That ends up highly timeable, sync-able, by-event, quite the opposite of a "spammy mess" (in my opinion, a term better fit to the meat-shielding and tunnel-visioned DPS or mass pulls of 'unadulterated' Holy Trinity play).

Tthis thread is about improving DPS queue times in the system we currently have - simply by increasing the number of slots in a 4-man dungeon to 5-6. Please don't derail it.

So any solution presented to (more fully) mitigate DPS queue times outside of your "only real way" is thread derailment? Really? In that case, what's to talk about? Should I just say "you idea would help, but would be ultimately insufficient" and end flatly, since a counter-suggestion would be taboo?

[Zojha]

I am yet to play a game where the removal of the holy trinity truly worked.

Surprising, considering that every mechanic where you have to do something other than tank and spank is independent of the trinity. And our fights in FFXIV are loaded with such - stack, spread, stand in position X, don't stand in the fire/telegraph, don't move, don't attack, bring two tethers apart, bring them together, hide behind X, use items (Cannons, Generators etc), step on traps, bait AoEs, react to buffs/debuffs, kill adds on a certain location (Quarn Plates), don't face the boss, count balls over your head and stack with the right amount of people, divebombs...none of these mechanics need the trinity.

On the flipside, the mechanics that do need the Trinity are: Arbitrary unavoidable damage (The one and only healer mechanic). Tank Swap. And the latter is just the first except tanks have to deal with it, not healers.
DPS checks/Enrages are a grey area, but I'd list them under trinity mechanics because they're only necessary when healers are so strong that they'd be able to drag the fight on forever.

Could it be that the non-trinity games you played simply had bad fight design? Because the trinity as such is actually very shallow design - All it adds is non-gameplay in form of unavoidable damage and then limited gameplay to deal with that damage.

[CatStarPrime]

Look I am not gonna pretend I've read the whole thread on this, is 8 pages -

Nah, it's only 3 pages.

Go in t'yer settings and max out the "Posts per page", unless you like clickin' more'n ye have to.

[Xdark93]

as i see it there is no right way to fix the ques they will be crappy regardless because that is how the system was designed for parties or individuals to que up waiting for roles to be filled. the devs are aware that the que times are not the greatest especially for DPS jobs due to the fact the majority leaning toward dps because healing and tanking requires more skill and discipline but not only that there is heavy discrimination placed upon players trying healing or tanking for the 1st time that kinda makes them hesitant to stay as 1. if people were more respectful towards eachother then maybe just maybe this df concept would work but it won't happen cause people no matter what have to discriminate or hate on eachother. therefore the only true viable solution is to take the df out of existence and replace it with something that doesn't heavily rely on other players etc

[vigioX-Sun]

I just like the idea of 1/1/3.
Must be fun.

[Derio]

Queue system doesnt always work like that. There have been plenty of times where I have got 2 SMN or when HW released 2MCH in a group. The system looks for 1 melee and 1 ranged but if it cant find that it will pair 2 melee or 2 ranged given the circumstance.

[Seidaku]

I think they need to remove the holy trinity. They should add a cross ability for classes like what healers have to swap stats. Rip Str and add it to Vit so a dps can tank etc. Let them learn a variety of play styles and such. Then you can have 4 dps, 4 healers, 4 tanks etc all with the ability to drop out of their comfort zone and do what needs to be done to succeed.

Always wondered why healers were the only ones that had to deal with the pita that is juggling between 2 roles.

[AlphaFox]

That is kinda how I view it. Sure some tanks and healers may jump to dps now that it can accommodate more but I really can't see a downside if they were to bring us a 3rd dps slot for normal dungeons, as I said earlier, even if its only as a trial period to see if it works out at all. Can't really imagine them going to rework Satasha or anything for 5 man parties unless they wanna buff the HP values for em?

[Belhi]

That is kinda how I view it. Sure some tanks and healers may jump to dps now that it can accommodate more but I really can't see a downside if they were to bring us a 3rd dps slot for normal dungeons, as I said earlier, even if its only as a trial period to see if it works out at all. Can't really imagine them going to rework Satasha or anything for 5 man parties unless they wanna buff the HP values for em?

You mean apart from the fact that it might take a lot of resources to make the change?