The only real way to solve DPS queues

[AlphaFox]

That is kinda how I view it. Sure some tanks and healers may jump to dps now that it can accommodate more but I really can't see a downside if they were to bring us a 3rd dps slot for normal dungeons, as I said earlier, even if its only as a trial period to see if it works out at all. Can't really imagine them going to rework Satasha or anything for 5 man parties unless they wanna buff the HP values for em?

[Mixae]

I always wondered why it was 2 dps instead of 3 in dungeons. Not sure if that would fix it because WoW has dps queues too that are long etc.

[Vaer]

I always wondered why it was 2 dps instead of 3 in dungeons. Not sure if that would fix it because WoW has dps queues too that are long etc.

In some final fantasy games, the parties are 3-4 members. They probably took that and carried it over.

[Belhi]

That is kinda how I view it. Sure some tanks and healers may jump to dps now that it can accommodate more but I really can't see a downside if they were to bring us a 3rd dps slot for normal dungeons, as I said earlier, even if its only as a trial period to see if it works out at all. Can't really imagine them going to rework Satasha or anything for 5 man parties unless they wanna buff the HP values for em?

You mean apart from the fact that it might take a lot of resources to make the change?

[CatStarPrime]

Look I am not gonna pretend I've read the whole thread on this, is 8 pages -

Nah, it's only 3 pages.

Go in t'yer settings and max out the "Posts per page", unless you like clickin' more'n ye have to.

[AlphaFox]

You mean apart from the fact that it might take a lot of resources to make the change?

If your meaning as the core aspect of new dungeons? Then no as it wouldn't be any different than the change they made from Labyrinth of the Ancients which was a 2/2/4 to Syrcus and WoD of 1/2/5. If the dungeons are created with this in mind then they have nothing to really worry about other than maybe the first 2 dungeons being labeled as "To easy" in which they know to buff or make changes in the future ones to make it a bit more of a challenge for 1/1/3. If you are referring to the older dungeons being redone to accommodate (or just keep them as is and make new dungeons follow this new formula), well they are pretty straight forward and I feel either a defense boost or hp increase would be all that is needed for a lot of the ARR dungeons, however I am not a programmer so I have no knowledge on reworking.

[Belhi]

If your meaning as the core aspect of new dungeons? Then no as it wouldn't be any different than the change they made from Labyrinth of the Ancients which was a 2/2/4 to Syrcus and WoD of 1/2/5. If the dungeons are created with this in mind then they have nothing to really worry about other than maybe the first 2 dungeons being labeled as "To easy" in which they know to buff or make changes in the future ones to make it a bit more of a challenge for 1/1/3. If you are referring to the older dungeons being redone to accommodate (or just keep them as is and make new dungeons follow this new formula), well they are pretty straight forward and I feel either a defense boost or hp increase would be that is needed for a lot of the ARR dungeons, however I am not a programmer so I have no knowledge on reworking.

The party limits are set as multiples of 4. The games engine might not be able to restrict a party to 5 members for a dungeon. It might be stuck between having the limit at 4 or 8. Actually making it so it limits to 5 might involve rewriting the underlying game code.

[Gumbercules]

I like the "base" idea you bring up, but i think it would prolly be more plausible if the change was actually to allow the dungeons to "switch" to accommodate 4 dps or 3 dps 1 tank/healer parties. As an example the "traditional" setup is designed around one player taking relatively high quantities of damage from a bosses unavoidable attacks (ie auto attack), but in a 4dps setting the dungeon could shift to a focus on telegraphed attacks with consequences being higher for failing to avoid said damage. (potentially even add a castbar of sorts to auto attacks that you can avoid). Course this system has to also be able to accommodate to 3 dps scenarios with 1 tank or healer, such as forcing the tank solo gameplay to revolve around survival and cd usage and healer solo around "spot healing" centric measures as a base.

Did not really bring up trash pulls cuz even now if you handle a pack at a time you can dps it down while being relatively safe, could also result in interesting use of CCs that atm are quite frankly useless. (and in most cases blatantly immune)

[Shurrikhan]

I am yet to play a game where the removal of the holy trinity truly worked. Guild Wars 2 tried this and to be honest it was a complete failure in my eyes.

I mean if they pulled it off, sure however I would be more inclined to go for a spec tree system, which allowed a job to spec into one role or the other. However this is just flat out too much work for this game in my opinion. You would also have optimal build paths and you would likely end up in a similar situation to what we have now.

Honestly, you don't even have to remove the Holy Trinity in order to avoid its stagnation to some extent, especially its contribution to tunnel vision and toolkit waste. You just need to adjust certain underlying mechanics, such as through reforms to mechanics like enmity (and/or to mob AI); perhaps by expanding mechanics like damage splitting, interception, or active dodging; and to add certain mechanics that can place soft windowed or situational limitations to a tank's uptime such as natural vulnerability stacking (e.g. XIII's "chain gauge" as able to affect players as well, and likely stacking slower on tanks than dps, allowing DPS to tank briefly without being overly independent or powerful generally and tanks to still make use of some DPS "snap-tanking"); or rebalance versatility in regards to simultaneous output (mitigation and damage) or functionality (survival and damage-dealing) in a different way, such as damage-based interruption (towards both enemies and allies, making DPS more capable and culpable in regards to survival) and resistance to interruption (probably significantly higher in tanks than melee than ranged than casters, such that a DPS doesn't necessarily have to be one- or two-shot by a mob for a tank to be worthwhile, as the cost can also be in part its damage-dealing).

As for the implications on dungeon-running, this need only extend a bit further—adjusting AoE formulas, as not to so soon or so effectively habituate massive pulls.

[Belhi]

I don't actually think making dungeons more mechanically punishing will help with anything. In my experience it ends up just placing more burden on the healer. Honestly I think the response they got to Steps of Faith put them off trying more mechanically diverse fights. People just quit rather than try the fight in the end sending a message to SE that mechanics beyond spamming damage at a boss and not standing in AoE was too much work.